Talk:分

RFV discussion: July–August 2021

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分

Rfv-sense: (Hakka) also. Pinging @Wiikipedian, who added this. This seems to be from Malay "pun". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:49, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Hello, should we add a qualifier for this? Wiikipedian (talk) 06:05, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: Do you have a source for this word written as 分? If so, yes, there should probably be a qualifier to this, like Malaysian Hakka. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: This word is definitely not written as 呠 in the sense of "also" in Hakka. This word is pronounced as bun1 in Hakka, whereas 呠 is pronounced as bun3, and is very rarely used, if ever. Wiikipedian (talk) 06:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: It's a loanword from Malay, and I don't know if there's a stable way this is written. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) 呠 is one way that this is written in Hokkien. See [1] [2] [3]. I don't think we should use a separate character unless you really have proof of 分 being used in Hakka. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:49, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I don't think there's a standard way of writing this across dialects, as this Malay term "pun" is transcribed into different Chinese dialects with vastly different pronunciations for different characters. This is in contrast to the situation where written characters come first, and are absorbed into different dialects. Wiikipedian (talk) 15:49, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: I understand, but if you don't have proof that the character 分 is actually used, I would be hesitant to use this character for this word. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:51, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I think Malaysian Hakka is not as well documented as Malaysian Hokkien is, as Malaysian Hokkien has been documented in the Penang Hokkien Dictionary. However, many of these words are backward formations, where pronunciations come first before the Chinese characters used to write them. And since these transcriptions are based on the Hokkien pronunciations, I believe it would be inappropriate and misleading to use them in other dialects, where many characters are pronounced differently from the Hokkien pronunciations. Wiikipedian (talk) 16:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Malaysian Hakka is rarely written, and when it is, it is more commonly written with (non standardized) Latin alphabets than Chinese characters. I think this character is appropriate for the transcription of this term as it is used for two other Hakka (and Teochew) terms with the same pronunciation. I am not aware of other commonly used Chinese characters with this pronunciation in Hakka. (I am sure there are, but I am not known of them.). Wiikipedian (talk) 16:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: And since this term is a loanword from Malay, and Malaysian Hakka is not well documented, I think it would be hard to come by a source, as opposed to a word that is loaned into, say, Taiwanese Hakka. Wiikipedian (talk) 16:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, Wiikipedian: I think we can just write it as pun. We do the same with tapi. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:42, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: Are there any songs in Malaysian Hakka that might use this word? We just need one use of this character (and I'd be happy to accept it even if it's not durably archived since it's not always possible). I don't think we should use a separate character for words of the same origin unless there are clearly established differences (like 巧克力 vs. 朱古力). If you cannot provide even one use of the character 分 (even if it matches better "phonetically" as a 同音字), it would not be convincing enough. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

• RFV failed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:36, 24 August 2021 (UTC)