Talk:Sid Kimpton

History, again...

I and chandler have different points of view about Sid Kimpton, an article I've just created. I think he is one and the same with a man called George Kimpton in most sources. Chandler disagree. As It is a complex question I would like to bring some opinions and sources as well. Cheers. --Latouffedisco (talk) 08:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

No I did not disagree about them being the same person or not, the aricle was not created when you changed the link without explanation, so I checked FIFA.com and they listed him as George Kimpton. Plus the links on that (post revert) article reference someone called George Kimpton so even if Sid was his nickname, the common name is George and the article should be there. chandler · 08:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Daemonic Kangaroo is a Southampton fan and will have access to books which should confirm what he was known as in the UK, certainly..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Another main controversy is that the link say he won silver medal at 1934 FIFA World Cup... but Kimpton coached France in that competition... I would say they are the same person, if not for that big WC inconsistency. --necronudist (talk) 09:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The Christies link says he had a 1934 World Cup silver medal, but doesn't specifically say he won it, maybe one of the Czechs lost it to him in a poker game :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh sure... the most likely thing in the World! --necronudist (talk) 09:23, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi guys - I'm at work now, but I'll take a look tonight and see if I can "arbitrate" and also fill in the details of his playing career. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 09:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The names seem weird to me. Other Southampton articles refer to him as Sid, so presumably that's what he was called as a Southampton player, and if his given name was Gabriel then Sid's as good a nickname as any, but if it is the same bloke, how did he become George, which he seems to have been throughout his foreign coaching career? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Bill Berry also appears to have metamorphosed into George when he went to France (although in this case it was at least his middle name)..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I've looked at some sources. It said he coached in Coventry. An other clue... The Christies link also said he coached RC Paris and Le Havre. That's why I thought "they" are the same person. And, yes there is still this inconstency with the name. With the vast amount of English players and managers in France at that time, and their names transformations, It is hard to find who's who. I've also performed a research at allfootballers.com and no "Kimpton" appeared. Is this a rare name?--Latouffedisco (talk) 10:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Southampton only joined The Football League in 1920, so his appearances for them would not be listed at allfootballers.com, as he had already left the club by then...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

This explains why. I've made an other web research at "GS Kimpton". And I 've found some interesting links. The first [1] is from a famous French encyclopedia, and states that Kimpton has been coaching France since May 1934. The second from a fan site [2], said he coached France in the 1930's, the third, from FC Metz official site shows that he also coached this team [3] at the beginning of 1938.--Latouffedisco (talk) 10:31, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

These links to some English books are also interesting.[4] [5].--Latouffedisco (talk) 10:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Does anybody know if he had some links with the US? Like a team trained, a parent there, a competition he took part... A great researcher friend of mine found something interesting, but it's hard to say who's the right Kimpton, the 1934 French coach. Thanks to the French mania of changing names to foreign people...! --necronudist (talk) 14:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I've now had time to look at my Saints reference books - his second name was "Sibley", but he was known as "Sid" - no mention of "George". After details of his playing career, which I'll add to the article later, the article goes on to say "In the thirties he was part of the Czechoslovakian coaching set-up and was given a medal when the national side reached the World Cup final against Italy in 1934. He was captured by the Germans in 1940 and spent the next five years as a P.O.W." The career summary section shows him coaching with the French national team in the 1920s (no specific dates) before coaching at Coventry City (1928), then with the Czech national team (1930s) and then "coaching in France" from 1936–1940. This seems to confirm athat "George" and "Sid" were the same person. I hope this helps. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 19:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, the article on George Kimpton on French Wikipedia gives his date of birth as 12 August 1887, whereas my references give his DoB as "1888". Unfortunately, French Wiki cites no references so I don't know where this came from. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 19:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Great Daemonic Kangaroo! So it was Gabriel Sibley Kimpton, son of Alfred Kimpton, born in Leavesden on 1886. He married Florence Louisa Goodin on 28 December 1910. --necronudist (talk) 19:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I've already asked the author of French wikipedia article. Keep my YOB as by now. --necronudist (talk) 19:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Good work, Daemonic Kangaroo. What you've found match with the Christies link. Some French sources also says he was taken as a POW. And yes necronudist, we LOVE changing names of foreigners!Cheers.--Latouffedisco (talk) 19:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I restarted the french WP article from zero. The work is somewhere "half-way". "George" is, for sure, the name use in France. I have 1930's newpapers interviews of the guy.

For Metz, I'm 99,99% (not to say 100...) sure that he never managed them. I don't know where the "official website" found that one... He was in charge of the RC Paris from 1935 to 1939. And they won the cup in 1939, and he was there with the RC Paris until the 1939 cup final (that's 100% sure).

For the player history, I have nothing for the moment. I never heard about Kimpton playing for Le Havre... but, why not... I will have to check.

I dont understand where the "Christies" world cup runners up medal come from... Same story in a Southampton book... Very strange... "George Kimpton" was, for sure, in the the French team staff (not head coach, only assistant) during the 1934 world cup and he came back to Paris after the game versus Austria (I have the L'Auto newspaper article of the arrival at the Gare de Lyon, with Kimpton, back from the world cup).

I checked France Football around the "Christies" death date, but I found nothing.

Excuse my very poor English... Clio64B (talk) 23:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

PS : I did contact fr:User:Xavoun on that one. He work on an History PhD about foreign footballers in France ; He will maybe have an answer. Clio64B (talk) 23:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Your English is surely better than mine...! Let us know if you find out something! --necronudist (talk) 09:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I have now expanded the section covering his playing career. The coaching/managerial career section still needs expanding - I'll leave Clio64B to re-write the article on French Wikipedia and then get it translated into English. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 06:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, Clio. I've removed the FC Metz manager stint, and put RC Paris from 1935 to 39. For the world cup medal, if I understand well, he used to be in the Czechoslovakia football team staff at one time, and they offer him a medal to thank him, I think.--Latouffedisco (talk) 08:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I dont know nothing about Kimpton with the Czechoslovakia football team staff. It is posible, of course, even during his club tenures (same story with RC Paris and French national team ; He did it at the same time). But, not during the 1934 WC... That's why I dont understand the 1934 medal story. I will contact football historians in central Europe on that one, but the answer will be maybe slow to come back...

For the playing career, I have nothing. I have nothing before 1934... I dont find no "Kimpton" player or manager at Le Havre during the 20's, but sources on that period are very bad... I know that RSSSF put Kimpton manager of Le Havre from 1921 to 1926, but I cannot find a "solid" source for that. For exemple, the (bad) book on Normandy football (Jacques Simon, Un siècle de football normand, 1998, p. 198) begin its "Mister Kimpton" short biography in 1934. Le Havre is in Normandy...

For the date of death, I will put a dime on 1968, because Le Havre call its youth promotion "Kimpton promotion" that year, but I can't find no obtuaries. I keep searching.

I hope that Xavoun will have "fresh" stuff on Kimpton. Clio64B (talk) 12:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The ABC of the Saints says that his playing career ended when he joined Pogoń Lwów; it also confirms the date of death as 15 February 1968. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 16:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

When I built the Template:Czechoslovakia national football managers with information from the Czech football federation (I have basic knowledges in Slavic languages) I did not find any Kimpton or something close that could ring a bell, that's why I think he was just in the staff. Maybe he did great work and a friend offer him a medal (I have some imagination, that's a nice gift, however...).--Latouffedisco (talk) 17:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I left a message on the Polish wiki and contacted a fan site of Pogon Lwow. I hope we'll get answers. --Latouffedisco (talk) 18:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi, this is a note on Kimpton's career from the most relevant source Fuji Football Encyclopaedia (vol. Polonia Warszawa): George Stuart (!) Kimpton - born 12.08.1887, died after 1949. Scotland-born English player and coach. Dec. 1921 player-manager of DFC Prague, 1922 - Polonia Warszawa, 1923 - Cracovia, left in Autumn to HAC Havre.

Kimpton never coached Pogoń Lwów.

Vertigo12 (talk) 17:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again for your quick answer: The issue is getting more and more complicated or not? Are they two Kimptons or have we just got some more details about his career? I don't know, however, he could be the same guy, as he left for Le Havre.--Latouffedisco (talk) 19:02, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Like you, I am now mightily confused - re-checking the ABC of the Saints, it says that Sid Kimpton was at "Prague (player-coach) in 1924", not Pogoń Lwów (I assumed that this was a Prague club), then he was coach with the French national team before coaching Coventry City in 1928. The Fuji article says that he was "Scottish-born" but my book has him born in Leavesden which is near Watford, England. Perhaps there were two different individuals after all!!! --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 19:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... Fuji Football Encyclopaedia is not so reliable... They can be two different individuals, sure, however the "French" Kimpton was Gabriel Sibley and was born (100% sure) in Leavesden, but in 1886. --necronudist (talk) 19:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, there was only one Kimpton in Poland - coach of Polonia and Cracovia. He was quite popular and often quoted in press. Vertigo12 (talk) 21:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Follow this link to Polish Przegląd Sportowy (#11, March 1922): http://buwcd.buw.uw.edu.pl/e_zbiory/ckcp/p_sportowy/1922/numer011/imagepages/image16.htm Vertigo12 (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I like the drawing Vertigo, thanks. It can help if we find some photos (I will search) Hum, so he left for Prague, good (DFC Prague, that's OK). This coach went also in Poland, where he left for Le Havre. Note that George Stuart and Gabriel Sibley have the same letters G.S. Kimpton.--Latouffedisco (talk) 09:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

This George Kimpton is definitely Scottish then, going by the cartoon. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The discrepancy in place/date of birth and both first and middle names seems to suggest that we must be dealing with two separate men whose histories have been merged to varying degrees in different sources. Heaven knows how we go about picking it all apart, though..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not so sure...Looking at some photos of RC Paris (ask me, I can send it by e-mail), Kimpton looks like the man in the Polish drawing.--Latouffedisco (talk) 09:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

For info, the 1891 UK census lists George Kimptons aged 1, 2 and 7, and no Gabriel Kimptons whatsoever. The one aged 2 could be him if Daemonic Kangaroo's source is correct that he was born in 1888 and the census took place before his birthday in that year. That would mean his name wasn't Gabriel, though...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

BTW I notice that the Polish cartoon depicts him in traditional Scottish attire but describes him as "Anglik" which I presume means "English"?!?!?!? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That's right Chris. Have also a look at his photo at FC Rouen official website here. Same guys from the cartoon I think, and same guys from my RC Paris photos.--Latouffedisco (talk) 10:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Literally it says: Professional "Englishman", master of technique. So, English refers to footballing tradition rather than to nationality. On the other hand, kilt on the drawing may appear to make Kimpton more exotic rather than to underline his Scottish origins. Vertigo12 (talk) 10:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Ancestry.co.uk does list a Gabriel Sibley Kimpton, born in Watford, but in December 1886. Don't know why he wouldn't be listed on the 1891 census, though.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Necronudist said he was born in 1886. It happens that some people are not in the census, even today...--Latouffedisco (talk) 10:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

So to summarise, we're fairly sure that his name was Gabriel Sibley Kimpton, born in Leavesden (even though overseas sources claim his name was George Stuart Kimpton and that he might have been Scottish) and that he played for Southampton. What details of his coaching career are we still trying to clarify.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Gabriel is on the 1891 census. Gabriel S Kimpton age 4, born about 1887, born Hertfordshire, residence Hertfordshire. Struway2 (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

OK. So, to be precise Gabriel was born on December 1886 (about 1887, here we are), that's perfect. (What would be useful is to search "George Stuart Kimpton" in the census : I don't know if he would be in, as he is supposed to be Scottish?). Played for Southampton, left to coach DFC Prague, went to Poland where he coached Cracovia Kraków, then left for le Havre of France. His coaching dates before the establishment of professional football in France (1932) are hard to find. Then he coached France, RC Paris, Rouen, Le Havre again, and Cherbourg. Died in 1968. At least, I have tried...--Latouffedisco (talk) 17:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I have now uploaded a picture of Sid Kimpton in his Saint's playing days and added it to the article - to me, this is clearly a younger version of the FC Rouen manager on their website[6]. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 19:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you Daemonic Kangaroo. His eyebrows are the same! So I think we have the same guy with different name. I will change the details of his career in Poland. --Latouffedisco (talk) 08:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)