Talk:Shooting brake

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It's true that a shooting break is a luxury car built for hunting purposes, but it is not just an estate car. The therm shooting break is used when the break version is derived from a sports car or coupé, thus an estate car like the Ford Scorpio isn't a shooting break. Examples of shooting breaks are, as stated in the article, Aston Martin DBS Shooting Brake or the Volvo P1800 ES (derived from the coupé P1800) or the Aston Martin DB5 shooting break, which, of course, derived from the 'normal' DB5.

Is the BMW Z4 coupe a shooting break, or is it more likely just a traditional coupe? It IS derived from the sportscar Z4 model, but it lacks the boxy form of true shooting breaks. I would think it's more of a small fastback and so haven't added it to the list. --76.26.198.20 (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2008 (UTC) KeplerNiko

I would say you are correct is your questioning whether the the BMW Z3 is a Shooting Brake....I don't ever recall BMW referring to this model as such. They only referred to this model as the "Z3 coupe"

Because this kind of list is supposed to give examples to help people understand the concept, and not be an exhaustive (complete) list, it's very good to keep only clear examples in the list. Anything dubious (as this is, simply because one has to ask!) should be kept as a point of interest in the prose, but not in the list. – Kieran T ^(talk) 17:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Redundant?

This page seems a little redundant, since "shooting brake" is a (mostly obsolete) synonym for "station wagon". Salmanazar (talk) 22:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Bear in mind that it's useful to describe historical terms and etymology, as well as current terms. The shooting brake term would need to be included in the estate car / station wagon article because it's still used occasionally, but it would make the parent article unwieldy and longer than Wikipedia's guidelines suggest is desirable. – Kieran T ^(talk) 10:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Jerks!

Renault Clio V6

The Renault Clio V6 page clearly notes that the design of the vehicle is a 2-seater hatchback. I would presume any 2-seat hatchback to qualify as a shooting brake.120.141.153.17 (talk) 05:28, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

A two-seat hatchback is not a shooting brake. A shooting brake is a sporting car (coupé or such) which has been equipped with a longer roof for some additional load lugging capacity such as guns, golfclubs, or hunting dogs. Please do re-read the article, and please find sources for your additions.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 17:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Shooting brakes may also refer to some hatchbacks marketed as coupes.120.140.102.217 (talk) 03:09, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd like a reference for that, and if that is true then the article clearly needs rewriting. The Clio V6 could barely even be considered a hatchback in any case, rather it's a silhouette car. Also, the C4 Coupé is never referred to as a shooting brake in the French C4 article.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

FWIW I recall Road & Track or Car & Driver referred to the BMW Z3 Coupe (and similar designs) as "bread wagons" (not sure if it was 1 word or two). Wiki does not currently have an entry for "bread wagon" or "breadwagon." I suppose that name meant that type of car was used to deliver fresh baked bread to (residential?) customers (while it was still hot!). Also, if a sports coupe-station wagon hybrid makes a shooting brake, I think the MG MGB GT (and MGC GT) could qualify. Phantom in ca (talk) 05:54, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Which Cars to Include

IMHO: While the term Shooting Brake has a perfectly legitimate, authentic etymology, no one is now suggesting that cars today called Shooting Brakes are used to break in horses and carry hunting weapons. The term Shooting Brake has become a highly esoteric, archaic marketing term, used to evoke a heritage of breaking horses and carrying weaponry... for advertising purposes. As the "Rich Corynthian Leather" of body types, it is disengenous to go back and apply the term to cars that were never marketed as such and clearly are not even currently designed designed to break in horses and carry shotguns — especially to include a fluffed up list of vehicles that could have been marketed as horse domesticating and weapon bearing... or that resemble cars now marketed that way. The term in fact probably requires a different, more careful approach than the use of terms like wagon or hatchback. Again, IMHO. 842U (talk) 15:20, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. To me (and others, such as Top Gear) a shooting brake is a combination between a coupé and a station wagon. How else do we define cars such as the BMW Z3 Coupé, Volvo 1800ES, Lancia Beta HPE? I see it as a useful term of classification, and wouldn't even consider it a marketing term at all. The original shooting brakes were exactly what they claimed to be; later, corporate examples are referred to as shooting brakes because they share the design concept. I don't see it as much different than hatchback or sedan (also a peacock word originally), except in that it applies to many fewer cars. Also MHO.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)5

When neither BMW, Lancia, nor Volvo chose to define those cars as Shooting Brakes -- not only is it a tad bit presumptions for us to do that, it's also original research and synth. 842U (talk) 03:27, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Ah, but it is not I who classifies them as such, but other writers - finding sources will take only a second, except I am travelling and cannot access my library. The Beta HPE is called a shooting brake (with source) in its article, but I don't want to move the source here until I can check on it. I agree that the list as it stood needed sources, but placing "citation needed" tags would have been more useful than just deleting things immediately.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 13:48, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

That may be, but it's perfectly acceptable to remove information that doesn't belong in the article.842U (talk) 14:14, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

That is not a problem - the disagreement is over what does belong in the article. The term shooting brake, no matter its origins (which can and should be expanded on in the article), currently refers to a blend of sports car and estate with limited practicality. Thus the verifiable and referenced opinion of a large number of motoring writers and car manufacturers alike.

OR or synth would be if I was to state my personal belief that a shooting brake should be based on an existing coupé design and also have a folding rear seat - those are nothing but my opinions but as you can see I am not trying to insert them in the article.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 04:01, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I would definitly include the Mercedes CLS, Daimler calls it 'shooting brake' themself. Mercedes Benz CLS Shooting Brake — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.90.217.179 (talk) 09:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

One question, although I've never heard the term "Shooting Brake" applied to the mid-1950 Chevrolet wagons they marketed as "Nomads," couldn't a 1955 Chevy Nomad also be classified as a "Shooting brake?" HaarFager (talk) 11:55, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Kia calls its ProCeed as shooting brake. "Enjoy the versatility and cargo space of a shooting brake body style with all the daring sporty styling of a GT-line." (https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/proceed/) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.183.143.105 (talk) 06:41, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Anachronism

The problem with the term "shooting brake" is that it seems to mean different things in different places where English is spoken as the mother tongue. I guess a lot of words do. And it seems to mean different things in different times. Well, a lot of words do that, too. But it means that using the term "shooting brake" now for something which was not specifically a shooting brake in its prime is prima facie anachronistic.

Today (2011) there are people who want to see the Reliant Scimitar GTE of the late 1960s as the archetypal shooting brake. At the time, in England, where the car was produced and where I then lived, we simply called it (rather inelegantly) a sports estate (car). We also called the BMW 2series Touring a sports estate car. They were the only two you could buy in England. They defined a new class, which even then was a difficult trick to pull off. Then Volvo came along with the 1800ES and so there were three. At that time, as far as I remember, a shooting brake was simply a posh word for what we in England called an estate car and what the Americans called a station wagon. If an auto-maker used the term shooting brake you knew he wanted to price his car as a premium product. But I'm pretty sure that the conflation of what we then called sporting estate cars and what today people want to call shooting brakes only turns up several decades later.

You don't need to trust my memory. I don't. But there is abundant evidence on this page that different people mean different things by the term "shooting brake". Given that Wikipedia does its best to flourish using just one amorphous version of the English language, maybe the only available moral is that use in Wikipedia of the term "shooting brake" should be kept to a minimum, in the interests of maximising the ratio of light to heat.

Given that this entry itself needs a definition, I have the impression that the bits added by Eddaido, complete with etymological note, do the job. To the extent that people want sources for the definition, can we stick to contemporary sources? My 1961 copy of Webster's dictionary says that "Shooting brake" is an English word for "Station wagon". I agree. However, if you prefer "contemporary" to mean "contemporary with my lunch" rather than "contemporary with the cars we're trying to define", my wife's 2008 (she likes to keep up to date) Oxford English dictionary says that "Shooting brake" is a (dated) English word for "Estate car". I agree with that too. If the denizens of Top Gear or some NYT journalist reading the Top Gear website want to pin the term down to just a certain type of station wagon / estate car that's fine. Moving meanings make language fun. But I think that for something so serious as wikipedia, where a definition has moved so very recently, we should probably prefer the dictionary to Clarkson's chosen ones.

Regards Charles01 (talk) 14:52, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

If we were to only adopt the OED's definitions of things, I fail to see what Wikipedia is for. Clarkson is hardly the only one who uses the term shooting brake in this manner. What it meant in 1960 is indeed relevant, but it also doesn't disqualify what the term means today (and has meant for some time). It is interesting to note that AML's use of "shooting brake" seems to since have become the accepted meaning of the term: successful branding indeed. No sources for that though, so it will stay on the talkpage.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 04:20, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

It does seem to me that the references you provide to support your opinion are all weak and are from: one of the "jokiest" acts on tv now; writers who are using English as a second language; or professional writers whose next item may well have been about the newest range of cosmetics. Check the contexts. Best, Eddaido (talk) 04:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion about this, but I do dislike things being deleted because they're a trifle obscure or dated. Especially when pages on every episode of "Seinfeld" or every Pokemon character are surviving. :( :( TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 13:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Although not very knowledgeable on this subject, I believe this article should remain (unless persuaded otherwise). It should outline how the usage of the term has changed over time and how it has become an extremely ambiguous term, exploited for marketing. The Mini Clubman has been referred to as a "shooting-brake" and Mercedes-Benz is about to release a CLS wagon that has been touted as a modern-day "shooting-brake". The current article does not mention these modern uses and it probably should—even if the vehicles in question do not fit into the original definition (which should be noted). OSX (talk • contributions) 03:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Conjecture

The subject seems to have a dearth of notable sources, and the tendancy has been to insert conjecture and original research in its place.

The sporting and hunting origins of the shooting-brake are well documented in the article. What is less clear is when a present day hatchback becomes a shooting-brake. In the meantime, let's keep the article based on solid resources, however, and not sprinkle it with original research on models that "could be" construed as shooting-brakes -- especially by editors and not noted sources. Please cite verifiable information and not conjecture.

If Audi specifically markets a concept as a shooting-brake, ok. If Dan Neil and the Wall Street Journal call a vehicle a shooting-brake, ok. But this is not the place for un-credentialed editors to theorize about what cars could or could not be construed as something that's poorly defined to begin with: the current specifics of what constitutes a shooting-brake.

I was asked on my talk page a while back if there are any cars I would consider shooting-brakes. That's precisely the kind of irrelvancy that can distort the article. It's not for the editors here to decide; that would be original research. I understand we're all trying to wrestile with a slippery subject. No worries. YMMV. 842U (talk) 13:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Bizarre

The joy in using the words for a hot hatchback was all in their absurdity. If the marketers follow up those benighted users unaware of the absurdity it makes a nonsense of the words.

In case it is of assistance to the above editor and any interested readers the state of the article after my amendments and before the swift wholesale revert may be seen on this page User:Eddaido/Sandbox2 Cheers, Eddaido (talk) 02:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Huntin', shootin' etc

One of the connotations that may have been missed is just what is meant by "Shooting parties". Here is an up-to-date description of a shooting party's day, of a type of "shooting party" which a century ago may well have used a purpose-built shooting brake on a used Rolls-Royce chassis (because it will be used to traverse rough ground as comfortably as possible). Any old disposable Range-Rover or Humvee might carry out that function now. Anyway this is why the term relates to luxury, it remains a very expensive and highly formalised activity, all round Europe. Shooting party Eddaido (talk) 02:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not following you. It's appropriate to link the term shooting party to a movie with the same name.842U (talk) 10:24, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

You're seeking definition of a British English noun. Well, the linked movie gives a very good illustration of what is involved. In lieu of this i have added to the lead a link to a reference which may make it all clearer. Here's a repeat an early 19th century British, though it should say late 19th.
The first 40 seconds of this will help too shooting party.
In addition to explain the central concept of 'brake' in shooting brake here is another link a purpose-built brake, London 1905. This is in fact no more nor less than what I was raised to call a sulky.
Popular Mechanics' idea of breaking in a horse is a bit general, harness horses are made from well-broken horses that have matured and have the strength and steadiness for the job.
If you wish to democratise "shooting parties" that's OK but remember any janitor in a steady job can probably get there each day by (pre-owned?) Rolls-Royce but they are not intended for janitors. Eddaido (talk) 22:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Mercedes-Benz CLS Shooting Brake

Could you reference the Mercedes CLS as an example of modern usage, albeit a four door variant and perhaps not technically correctly named?

misnaming

It might also be worthwhile to expand the comments that manufacturers deliberately mis-identify vehicles for marketing purposes, a classic example is the Ferrari 308 GTS, where GTS stands for 'grand touring spider' but the car is not a spider, it's a targa - Ferrari apparantly didn't want to use the designation GTT.

November 2018

@842U: Hello. Could you please let me know which specific parts of the edits were "unwarranted removal of bona fide, cited definitions and quotations by largely uncited Original Research"? Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 12:06, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

The introduction to the article ABOUT A TERM had carried 10 citations ABOUT THE TERM. The points made in the introduction were supported by clear research. 80% were removed, and the suppositions in the lede were left unsupported. It's not that the lede has to have citations, but its hard to argue that a lede that is largley unsupported by research is better than one that is.842U (talk) 21:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. None of the references were actually removed, they were just moved to different sections of the article and the intro was intended to be a summary of these sections. Sorry that this made it appear to look unsupported and caused a misunderstanding.
In two separate revisions, I have now restored the changes unrelated to the intro and then made some new changes to the intro. Here is an explanation for the latter revision:
- Not all 3 phases are worldwide, because the interchangeable use with wagon/estate is specific to the UK
- Etymology of brake more appropriate for Horse-drawn wagons section than article intro, so I have moved it there
- "In contemporary usage" has been summarised, because it is a complex situation which is dealt with in detail in the Present-day definition section
- Similarly, the New York Times quotes are also present in that section, where they are covered in context of other descriptions. Highlighting these opinions in the intro would give them undue weight.
- Adding brief summary of the post-1960 history sections of the article.
If you are making changes, I ask that you please consider WP:BABY. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 12:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Shooting-brake or Shooting brake ?

My own instinct, which a quick Google search confirms, is that the term is almost always spelled Shooting brake, with no hyphen. So I propose to rename the article. Any objections? Colonies Chris (talk) 11:13, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

• Agree. It seems to be more commonly referred to without the hyphen these days. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 07:31, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
• Agree. Collins, Dictionary.com, TheFreeDictionary.com and WordReference all spell the word without a hyphen. I have not been able to find an online dictionary that lists the hyphenated spelling. --ehn (talk) 03:20, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Fixed the spelling in the article and requested a move. --ehn (talk) 03:34, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Let me interject. A "break" is defined in the OED as a large wagon used to break horses (i.e., horses trained to harness or to pull a wagon). When seats were put on top of these large "breaks" the "shooting break" was born for "shooting parties." (These shooting parties used guns and gun dogs to shoot and collect birds.) The modern usage is a corruption, because when people think of vehicles they think of stopping them, ergo, "brakes." The assertion that the word "brake" comes from a foreign word is fanciful. In the article: "It is possible that the word 'brake' has its origins in the Dutch word 'brik' which means 'cart' or 'carriage'.[citation needed]." "Citation needed," indeed; someone is speculating to justify the misspelling. (I am an old carriage driver and understood what a "break" was and it has been commonly used in Great Britain for hundreds of years.)

Let me interject too, I completely agree with all @Sterngard: (unsigned) says, in fact somewhere above you will find I have already said something very much the same. Eddaido (talk) 07:42, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

• Agree. As per nom and others.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 16 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 03:47, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

---

Shooting-brake → Shooting brake – The hyphen is not commonly used, as evidenced by Google and various dictionaries as well as talk page discussion. No opposing editors in over two years, with four supporting the move.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:32, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Rreagan007 (talk) 07:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support as per section above. ehn (talk) 11:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support - per nom. CZmarlin (talk) 21:01, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Number of doors

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what makes a shooting brake still. A shooting brake is a station wagon derived from a coupé. If we accept that there can be four-door coupés (and why not, "coupé" simply refers to being cut down, i.e. with a lower, more rakish roofline) then there is no reason to believe that a four-door shooting brake is a misnomer. See the Aston Martin Vacances Shooting Brake, for instance. One reference of very low quality went so far as to state that the Volkswagen Type 3 Variant is a shooting brake, utterly unaware that the two-door station wagon used to be a standard bodystyle.[1]  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:39, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree, the Kia ProCeed is a 4 door vehicle and is called "ProCeed Shooting brake". As referenced on the Kia website, "The ProCeed's shooting brake body gives you the versatility and space of a combi with the head-turning elegance of a coupé."