Talk:Raymond Hesselyn/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk · contribs) 04:17, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I'll take a look at this shortly. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 04:17, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Prelim

• Earwig reports no copyvio
• No edit war
• No duplicated links
• Images correctly licensed

Lede and infobox

• Middle name in lede needs to be mentioned in main text for citation

• I originally couldn't cite it but then remembered another book that mentions the middle name, so now sorted. Zawed (talk) 05:22, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Consecutive sentences begin with "returned" and "returning", which makes awkward reading

• Fixed. Zawed (talk) 03:09, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• You use single quotation marks for his nickname in the main text but double in the infobox

• Fixed. Zawed (talk) 03:09, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Link Hillingdon

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:09, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Early life

• Per previous point on middle name

• Done. Zawed (talk) 05:22, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Would "who would become..." work better than "who would be..."?

• Yes it would, fixed. Zawed (talk) 03:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Link joinery

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Second World War

• Link corporal

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• You never use the abbreviation RNZAF so introducing it seems unnecessary

• I probably planned to, but never did! Deleted. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Actually, brought it back as I have now used it. Zawed (talk) 04:41, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "His judgement was found to be at fault." Can you elaborate on what this meant for him? Was he reprimanded etc?

• Not explicitly. I think most accidents had some sort on inquiry afterwards to determine what happened. In this case I expect it will have been chalked up to experience. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Note that Aoringi was an ocean liner when introducing her

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "before being posted to No. 501 Squadron" Is this also in September? Another date would be useful to pin down when he started convoy patrols

• Have revised this section a little to provide more context for timings. Zawed (talk) 05:40, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "transferred to No. 234 Squadron as a flight sergeant." He was already serving at 501 Sqn, so surely he already held flying rank by this point? If you're just unsure of the exact date of promotion it might be better to say "...having already been promoted to flight sergeant"

• Done. Zawed (talk) 05:40, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "sweeps" is a little vague here, were they different to the convoy patrols? If so it could be better clarified

• Have rephrased. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Malta

• "hindered his participation in the ensuing dogfight." This seems like a half finished story, I assume that this meant that he failed to claim any victories etc, but it could be clearer

• Have rephrased. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• You use his nickname for the only time here in the second paragraph, and it seems out of place

• Before I started work on this article, the original text referred to him by his nickname throughout. I replaced them all for a more formal tone but missed this one. Fixed. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Did these six sorties include the 11 March one?

• Yes it did, have made more explicit. Zawed (talk) 05:40, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Link strafing

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "Another Ju 87 was shot down over Ta Kali..." This sentence is a little confusing. Did Hesselyn shoot the Ju 87 down or did someone else? Saying "but Hesselyn...used up his remaining ammunition engaging them" sounds like it was a bad thing, but surely fighting until your guns were dry wasn't frowned down upon? If you're saying that it was unfortunate because he was not able to shoot the Bf 109s down then this could be clarified

• Have rephrased. Zawed (talk) 05:40, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "with Hesselyn and another pilot was scrambled"

• Done. Zawed (talk) 05:40, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "he was informed by Wing commander Edward Gracie" Is it necessary to name Gracie as the informer? You don't mention him again and he doesn't have an article

• Deleted mention of Gracie. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "suffering from shock, was then..."?

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "deemed only a probable victory"? Calling it just a probable may be a little confusing for casual readers

• I have rephrased this, see what you think. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "flight operations" or flying operations?

• Went with flying operations, seemed a better fit in this context. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "engaged one, damaging it"

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "be the recipient"

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "with more raids being mounted at night" You say he had a quiet June, but could specify as to whether this was because of the raids now being at night, and why this change meant he saw less action

• Have attempted to claify this. Zawed (talk) 05:40, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• You occasionally change from "Bf 109s" to just "109s", and should really stick with one or the other

• I prefer to use Bf 109, Ju 88, etc... after the initial mention. I have fixed one, will keep an eye out for others. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "Before returning to England," Remove comma

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Europe

• "Hesselyn arrived in England..." When?

• The source frustratingly doesn't given an date but I reckon late July. I have rephrased the previous paragraph to refer to him leaving shortly after his last victory in Malta. I think that is fair to say given what is in the source. Zawed (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "as a flight commander." Is he still a pilot officer at this point? I don't see when he becomes a flying officer

• An explicit date of promotion isn't mentioned, just a mention of "Flying Officer Hesselyn" at one point when referring to an action in August. I have added mention that he was a flying office by the end of August. Zawed (talk) 05:12, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• You need to decide which way you're capitalising ranks, e.g. you use "Wing Commander" and "Wing commander"

• Gone with capitalising both when being used as a prefix to a name. Zawed (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "termed Ramrods, to the Continent" Do either of these require capitalising?

• Ramrods does, I have added a link, and for the other have switched to Europe. Zawed (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "Two days later, with another pilot, he shared in the destruction" No need to say "with another pilot" when you're already saying it was shared

• Deleted "with another pilot" Zawed (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "upgraded to the new Spitfire IX (LF) aircraft." Out of interest, what was the upgrade exactly?

• The upgrade is in relation to the engine, and specifically the superchargers. These could be optimised for specific flying heights (LF refers the engine being best up to a low (relatively) flying height of 10,000 ft. F relates to a medium flying height and HF to a high flying height. I have added a link. Zawed (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Where is Audring? Not very useful naming a place that doesn't have an article

• No idea! I couldn't find it when I added this text. I have opted to delete it. Zawed (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "on a mission escorting..."

• Fixed. Zawed (talk) 05:13, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Link B-25 Mitchell

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Link Amiens

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Link B-24 Liberator

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Prisoner of war

• Link Prisoner-of-war camp?

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:56, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Castrated?! Assume the claim wasn't confirmed; what do you think?

• Yes, not officially confirmed. According to his biographer, Hesselyn only told close family this. That's why I state "alleged". Zawed (talk) 03:56, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "On rejoining the rest of his captives" This makes it sounds like he was a guard rather than a fellow prisoner! Perhaps fellow captives?

• Done but with a bit of a rephrase as well. Zawed (talk) 03:56, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Introduce the POW acronym before you use it for the first time

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:56, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Postwar career

• Hesselyn was released in May 1944 but didn't serve again in the war? Is that not an especially long recuperation period?

• Oops, I hadn't been explicit enough regarding when the POW camp was liberated. It was actually in 1945 but everything else in that section is in 1944 so I can see the cause for confusion. Zawed (talk) 04:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• I'm a little confused over his rank upon transferring to the RAF. He was commissioned as a pilot officer but kept his rank as a flight lieutenant, which was made substantive the next day? Does this mean he was holding a war substantive rank (for the single day he was a pilot officer/flight lieutenant) despite there not being a war ongoing? I feel this could be rephrased so that it makes more sense, unless I've completely missed the point!

• This is another holdover from the original text, and the sourcing for this is the LG cites. My main source (Sutherland) doesn't actually mention his rank at this stage. I suspect the use of war substantive ranks was to give seniority in rank over junior officers for chain of command purposes while paying wages at the commissioned rank. I've trimmed it down by simply referring to flight lieutenant and removing the mentions of seniority (which don't add much in this context). Zawed (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "recovery officer" This role probably needs explaining, not immediately clear

• The source does not expand on this. I suspect it is probably something to do with wreck recovery e.g. Joint Aircraft Recovery and Transportation Squadron but that would be OR. Zawed (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Do you have dates for the RAF Horsham and 217 Signals Unit postings?

• No, the main source doesn't specify when he started these postings, only the end of the Signals posting. Zawed (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• "emeny" sp

• Fixed. Zawed (talk) 04:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• Is naming Spinks auction house a necessary addition? They don't seem to be that notable and for most people knowing the medals were auctioned at all will be enough

• Revised. Zawed (talk) 04:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

That's all I have for now. Will await your replies. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:12, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: thanks for the extensive review, much appreciated. I have responded to your points as outlined above. Zawed (talk) 05:42, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

@Zawed I have made some minor and hopefully uncontroversial edits to help clean the article up, and am now happy to pass this as satisfying the good article criteria. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:17, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the review Pickersgill-Cunliffe, and for picking up that dupe link arising from my changes. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 21:18, 4 December 2021 (UTC)