Talk:Jack Churchill

claymore

M18A1 Claymore or Claymore sword?

The link for the claymore is to the claymore sword and not the bomb. I think it would be awesome if it was the sword, but I dont know. Please god, let this man be the biggest baddass and have let him used a sword. That would be friggin awesome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.245.243 (talk) 06:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It is the sword. There is a picture of him exiting a landing craft with a sword in his hand - a Scottish claymore. The M-18a1 AP mine was developed starting 1952. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matej-Arkan (talk • contribs) 22:19, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

It's definitely the sword. A man can't exactly tote around a bomb and expect to use it in combat.

"mad Jack" Churchil was as nuts as a badass Brit can be.....it WAS a sword and he apparently used it to capture many a German....if not to slice and dice.

More here for a good read.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/churchill.html

I can't confirm all this so I haven't added anything to the article...but it's a damn fine read, old boy. ;-) (BTW folks if copy and pasting this here violates copyright please delete...I feared that "badass of the week might disappear soon, which is why I copied the lot...too good to be temporary)--Phil Wardle (talk) 07:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

"Jack Malcolm Thorpe Fleming Churchill graduated from Sandhurst Military Academy in 1926 and joined the storied Manchester Regiment of the British Army. He spent his first few years in the army riding his motorcycle across the entire Indian subcontinent (both the paved and the unpaved paths) just for the hell of it and learning to play the bagpipes despite the fact that he was about as Scottish as Shaka Zulu. After about ten years of doing crazy shit in the army, Jack Churchill retired. In his time off he worked as a newspaper editor, a professional male model and a movie extra, all the while honing his skill at archery and bagpiping on the side. He even represented England in the Archery World Championships in 1939. But guys like Jack Churchill aren't satisfied just by being a bizarre mesh of Robin Hood and Derek Zoolander, so he re-enlisted. And in the early months of 1940, he had his opportunity to prove himself as a distinguished, if not slightly eccentric, officer of the British Army.

He had been shipped to France to assist the rest of the British Expeditionary Force in their mission to reinforce the Maginot Line, but not long after Churchill arrived Hitler decided to send his legions to seriously up France and the Brits found themselves right in the middle of a raging shitstorm. The British troops were being pushed back towards the sea by the unstoppable Blitzkrieg, doing whatever they could to stall the Germans' relentless advance.

Well Jack Churchill had some ideas. He not only refused to give ground, but he launched small-scale guerrilla raids and surprise attacks on German positions and supply depots. Riding his trusty motorcycle and armed only with a bow and arrow and a Scottish broadsword, he would assault the Germans, catch them completely off-guard, and mess them shit up medieval-style. When asked by a fellow officer why Churchill insisted on carrying the broadsword into battle with him, he responded, "In my opinion, sir, any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed".

Churchill's sword.

Despite being shot in the neck by a German machine gun, "Mad Jack" Churchill (as he came to be known) battled throughout the Dunkirk campaign, at one point even winning the Military Cross for bravery when he rescued a wounded British officer from a German ambush -- probably by swinging in on a rope, stabbing a Nazi officer in the chest with his sword and then beating up another eight guys with his bare hands, but that's just a guess.

After Dunkirk, Jack returned to England and promptly signed up to be a member of a new organization known as the Commandos. He wasn't sure what a Commando was, but he was excited about the prospect of kicking German asses, so he couldn't resist. He was promptly put through the grueling training regimen of the British Special Forces, and he loved every minute of it.

When his training was completed, he took part in the daring amphibious assault on the German base in Vaagso, Norway. As the leader of Number 2 Commando, Churchill was responsible for taking out the artillery batteries on Maaloy Island. As the landing craft raced towards their LZ, he belted out "The March of the Cameron Men" on the bagpipes to pump up his men and prove to everyone how awesome he was. When the assault ramp swung open, he fearlessly waded through knee-deep water out at the head of his men, with his trusty blade lofted high in the air, screaming "COOMMAAAAAAANNNNDOOOO!!!!!" at the top of his lungs. Two hours later, British High Command received a telegram from the front:

Maaloy battery and island captured. Casualties slight. Demolitions in progress. Churchill."

During the British landing at Salerno, he won another award for bravery. His squad was charged with taking out an artillery battery that was pinning down a nearby British force, despite the fact that the town of Piegoletti (where the guns were based) was garrisoned by a force much larger than his own Number 2 Commando. Well Churchill was like, "screw that". In the middle of the night, he had his men charge the town from all sides, screaming "COOMMAAANNNNDOOO!!!" as loud as possible. The Germans were confused and surprised, and mounted a futile resistance. The 50 men of Number 2 Commando took 136 prisoners and inflicted an unknown number of casualties.

But that wasn't even the most balls out thing Mad Jack did on that campaign. One night, he single-handedly took forty-two German prisoners and captured a mortar crew using only his broadsword. He simply took one patrolling guard as a human shield and went around from sentry post to sentry post, sneaking up on the guards and then shoving his sword in their faces until they surrendered. His response when asked about how he was able to capture so many soldiers so easily:

"I maintain that, as long as you tell a German loudly and clearly what to do, if you are senior to him he will cry 'jawohl' (yes sir) and get on with it enthusiastically and efficiently whatever the situation."

Now if that's not hardcore, then nothing is.

Churchill continued to lead his men in action against the German forces in Yugoslavia, but was eventually captured by the enemy while fighting for Point 622 on the island of Brac in the Adriatic Sea, when every man in his Commando team was killed or wounded and all of his revolver ammunition ran out. Knowing that he was not going to escape, and having no further means of killing Nazis, Jack started playing sad songs on his bagpipes until he was finally knocked unconscious by a frag grenade and taken off to the Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp.

But it would take more than some concentration camp to hold Jack Churchill. One night in September of 1944, he escaped the camp by crawling under barbed wire and through and abandoned drain. He was later recaptured while walking towards the Baltic coast and shipped off to a prison camp in Austria.

This too would prove to be insufficient to hold Jack, however. When the camp lighting failed one night in April 1945, he dropped his shovel and walked away from work detail. He marched 150 miles through the treacherous terrain of the Alps, "liberating" vegetables he found along the way, until finally he met up with a U.S. Armored column and was sent back to England.

Unfortunately, the war was pretty much over at this point. He expressed interest in fighting the Japanese, but as his train was pulling into the station in Burma he received word that the atomic bomb had been dropped on Hiroshima and the Pacific Campaign would soon be over.

However, Jack's adventures weren't finished yet. At the age of 40, he qualified as a paratrooper and completed jump school. He went on to serve in action in Palestine, where he earned fame for defending a Jewish medical convoy from an Arab ambush - radioing for backup and providing small-arms fire while wearing his full military dress uniform. Another time he and twelve other men evacuated a hospital full of Israeli medical personnel when they came under attack by Arab rockets.

After Palestine, Churchill went on to serve as an instructor at a land-air warfare school in Australia and become a hardcore surfer. He even designed and built his own surfboards. He retired from the army in 1959, recipient of two awards for bravery.

I love eccentric badasses, and "Mad Jack" Churchill (also known as "Fighting Jack" Churchill) is about as eccentric as they come. It takes a special kind of badass to carry a bow and arrow to a gunfight, to scream at the top of his lungs in the face of oncoming machine gun fire, and to capture a mortar team using nothing but a sword and a little bit of ingenuity. The guy was always looking for adventure, never backed away from a fight, and was pretty much insane to the point of being a total badass."

Primary source, anybody?

This should be put in the deletion queue if there is no way to independently corroborate that this man lived and did these things. World War 2 History magazine is not a repository for British commando records. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.252.207.123 (talk) 19:46, 10 May 2006

But British commando records aren't what's needed here. Almost all sources on Wikipedia are secondary sources. No original research, remember? If there were some reason to believe the secondary sources were fabricated or inaccurate, that would be one thing. But is there any reason to believe that here?

Rbraunwa 20:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. No reason not to keep the article; I've heard and seen stranger things in military history. Kuroji 09:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You could always contact his former regiment, they are always happy to help when it comes to former members especially one with the standing of Jack Churchill--Goatan 09:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Jack was my great uncle - he definitely lived and did these things. I intend to review the entry with my father's help. 40.0.96.1 16:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The link to this article from claymore calls him a Lt. Col was this only a wartime rank as it obviously contradicts this article Alci12 22:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow.

This guy is probably the biggest badass in history. Deimoss 01:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Word.

This article is very difficult to believe, and because of that should be supported with good citations, e.g. ones which do not refer to the "merciless hands of the Russians" etc. We'd all love to believe this, but I'm afraid it simply isn't true... --MatthewLiberal 20:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

And your proof is...?? Panzer V Panther (talk) 11:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It's true matt, honest. Restepc (talk) 01:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who's more badass, Chuck Norris or this guy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.138.118 (talk) 02:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a little point: the article gives his birth year as 1912, and his graduation from Sandhurst as 1926. He graduated at 14? Unlikely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.141.29.244 (talk) 20:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

One of the linked pages gives his year of birth as 1906, which would explain how he graduated in 1926. Does anyone know which is correct -- 1912 or 1906? 62.88.193.91 (talk) 12:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Badass? No, sorry.

This man was the Leeroy Jenkins of WW2. Because he rushed into battle "wid a sawd, y'all" dosn't somehow make him a good soldier, it makes him one lucky son of a bitch that he managed to not get killed. His idiocy (sorry, badassery to some of you) didn't help him or save him, it was sheer luck. As for the "oh, he rounded up 42 Germans", no. He and another officer snuck in, as unsurprisingly it is quite easy to sneak two people in than an entire regiment, and captured a single man. That single man instructed his troops to surrender.

Wait, are you saying that Leeroy Jenkins isn't a badass?--74.83.10.44 (talk) 05:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems the ONLY time he actually accomplished anything was when he wasnt being an idiotic moron and actually using tactics. 121.221.99.164 (talk) 14:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Harlequin

I'm assuming your grasp of "tactics" comes from playing Rainbow 6? Or is that me being an "idiotic moron"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.153.139.64 (talk) 01:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The title of this section is quite correct and anyone referring to Jack Churchill as a 'badass' is either mistaken or indulging in slander against the great man. Any historian worth his salt can tell you that Jack Churchill was a model of anal hygiene, eschewing mere toilet paper in favour of sandpaper, Brillo pads and a bidet which shot sulphuric acid at his anus. --Lord Moloch (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

All this stuff is irrelevant. The article doesn't give him a label. Panzer V Panther (talk) 09:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Can we just delete this section? It's completely irrelevant to the article. Nowhere in the article does it ever make the claim that he was a "badass". 117.56.215.14 (talk) 01:33, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

While this is irrelevant, I feel it must be said that all this medieval weaponry must have had quite a psychological effect on the troops under his command. Especially given that he survived, it would have boosted their courage to fight off the Germans. He was a genius at morale raising, I'll bet. 64.46.16.51 (talk) 04:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

escape from Niederdorf

Not to spoil the party, but all the other prominent Dachau prisoners were liberated in May 1945 at Niederdorf and Churchill is on that list. The SS ran away in fact and left the prisoners behind, no need to escape from Niederdorf (it wasn't a prisoner "camp" either but a really beautiful hotel, (sorry it's German). HerkusMonte (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The escape of Churchill from the group,just few days before it was liberated,is perfectly explained in Jimmy James' book "Moonless Night":he escaped in the way to Niederdorf,not there, worked his way 150 milles,found an amerincan tanks column, identified himself as british officer doing his best Sandhurst salute, etc...If the german soldiers didn't delete his name of the prisioner's list is clearly a relazing of their duties due to the inminent surrender. I understand that James' book is a detailed first hand source which should be respected,specialy because it is he same version that some years after Jack's best friend, RexKing-Clark, explained in "Unlimited Boldness", Churchill's biography. IVAN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.126.239 (talk) 00:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

"After the departure of the Germans Churchill walked 95 kilometers (150 miles) to Verona, Italy where he met an American armoured force." 95 kilometers is 59 miles. 150 miles is 241 kilometers. Which was it in the original source? Zeev.tarantov (talk) 15:25, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Photo

I've found two amazing photos of Churchill, staring down the muzzle of a captured 75 gun on Vaagso, and leading troops off a landing craft during a Scottish training exercise, sword-in-hand. I'll try to upload them this week. If you're over-anxious, or I never get around to it, bug me on my talk page. I just need to get my scanner hooked up :) Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 07:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure those are real pictures? If so, where did you get them, because the one with the landing craft looks very faked, for instance, it's the wrong type of sword? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.80.11.72 (talk) 02:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm positive, they're photos scanned from a 1960s series of Ballantine books on the Second World War, comprised chiefly of photographs from the Imperial War Museum. Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 03:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Assume you are confused because he's carrying a one handed sword, there are one handed claymores (also known as Scottish Broadswords) Surlywombat (talk) 00:19, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

As a photographer I have to say the landing photos with sword in hand is very dodgy looking. While I have no reason to dispute he did in fact carry a sword, I'm pretty sure that this photo isn't real. The highlights on the blade are way to blown out relative to the shadows on the figure holding it. If the sword was indeed exposed to be that blown out you would expect to see at least some detail on the uniform/helmet/skin tones. This may be a reproduction issue, and I would love it to be real, but I think the original needs to be sourced to confirm it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2406:9A00:0:107:203:144:40:139 (talk) 04:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Name

I am rather dubious about Churchill's name - 'Jack' is a diminutive of 'John', and in Britain wasn't used as a name in its own right until recently. It certainly wasn't common currency in the early 20th century. Mon Vier (talk) 20:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

King John of England and King John of Scotland would seem to disagree. Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 20:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I meant that 'Jack' being used as a name in itself is a modern concept. 'John' has always been a very popular name. If the man's name was John Churchill, fine, but the article should reflect that. I would be surprised if 'Jack Churchill' was the name he was born with - it would be like the Prime Minister of the day having 'Winnie Churchill' on his birth certificate. Mon Vier (talk) 23:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

n.b. the German source cited above shows his name as "Jack" Churchill - suggesting that it was a nickname. Mon Vier (talk) 23:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

In which case more research is clearly required! I'll fetch my deer stalker...

As ever for British Army officers, the London Gazette is you best friend:

• Jack Malcolm Thorpe 0 hits
• John Malcolm Thorpe 2 hits

Also, official records in The National Archives for the original recommendations for his decorations have [John (or just J M T

rank

This source suggests that Jack's final rank was Major, not Lt. Col. as he was demoted in 1948: http://www.commandoveterans.org/history_2cdo_b.html Keteracel (talk) 22:21, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Despite the way that article is worded, I suspect he actually simply reverted to his substantive rank (as happened to most officers who continued to serve after the war as the army contracted to peacetime size). It is also usual to grant a retiring officer the highest rank held in wartime, would have to check the London Gazette to be sure (see above), but I'm reasonably confident that will be the case in this instance, so it woul dbe correct to describe him as lt-col. David Underdown (talk) 08:34, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

He asked for a change to the Highlanders despite it meant to voluntarily lose his rank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.97.104.82 (talk) 11:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Escape from Sachsenhausen

He may not have crawled under barbed wire and through a sewer: www.badassoftheweek.com

The following article corroborates the fact that Churchill was in Sachsenhausen with Jimmy James: www.timesonline.co.uk Keteracel (talk) 08:56, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

This also corroborates the date of the escape through a tunnel: www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keteracel (talk • contribs) 08:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Then we have this that shows that Churchill and James were together when they were caught: www.pegasusarchive.org It also suggests that they went down the railway. One of the previous links I added suggested that they hopped on trains and did not walk the whole way. Keteracel (talk) 09:06, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The escape (through a tunnel) is described in great detail in The Longest Tunnel, Alan Burgess, Publisher: Grove Pr; ISBN-10: 1555840337 Anniepoo (talk) 17:30, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Birthplace

According to his obituary in the Telegraph he was born in Surrey whilst his father (and presumably his mother as well...) was on leave from the Public Service in Hong Kong. Profoss (talk) 10:43, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Good spot, I'll change it now--Allthestrongbowintheworld (talk) 17:28, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Got 2 other sources state otherwise(Hong Kong). Also added a surrey source. I think military magazines should be the expert in this though. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 17:25, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I disagree, obituaries from national media organisations tend to be as reliable as they come. Logically, the fact that the Telegraph suggests that Churchill was born in the UK, against the prevailing opinion that he was born in Hong Kong, while also going in depth to suggest he was born here while his father was on leave, would suggest that they have credible evidence to support their notion.--Allthestrongbowintheworld (talk) 22:28, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

This is putting too much weight on these medias, they don't have the expertise and time to specifically review and research about a certain person, but only to give out interesting and eye capturing articles that gets readers happy. There was even a research that used Wikipedia to display how these medias work and how inaccurate they are,(a student intentionally and persistently added a hoax on a person's article that died during that time and eventually the media followed what was written on Wikipedia.) so they don't really have fact checking procedures and may only look into 1 or 2 sources. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 08:32, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

now says "born in surrey or hong kong" (?) 86.146.215.126 (talk) 06:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Since there are different sources with different views, per WP:NPOV, both are listed with sources unless a much more reliable source pops up somewhere. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 14:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Family History via The Churchill Chronicles, Maj Gen Thomas BL Churchill puts his birthplace as Colombo, Crown British Colony Ceylon in 1906. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:2900:E2A:2CF4:B6E2:3988:F939 (talk) 04:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

References

Don't understand something in the British Palestine section

" "Major Jack Churchill was one of the first men on the scene and banged on a bus, offering to evacuate members of the convoy in an APC" - What does that mean? I'd edit it to make it clear if I had the first clue where to start :) Lawrie (talk) 00:22, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Birthplace wtf

So why is there so much disagreement about his birthplace? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 02:48, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. Could those changing it to Hong Kong provide an inline citation? Dschslava ^Δx parlez moi 16:20, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Quoting from the Telegraph's Obituary: "John Malcolm Thorpe Fleming Churchill was born in Surrey on Sept 16 1906. His father, Alex Churchill, was on leave from the Far East, where he was Director of Public Works in Hong Kong and Ceylon." [1] Scr★pIron^IV 16:26, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Quoting from "The Churchill Chronicles"[2], "Alec Fleming and Elinor Elizabeth (Bell) had four children, the eldest of whom was called Alec Thorpe, who was born and died in Ceylon in 1905. John Malcolm Thorpe, the next child, was born in Colombo in 1906, and was always called Jack. Thomas Bell Lindsay was the second surviving child and was born in 1907 in Dormansland, Surrey (while his parents were on leave in England); and Robert Alec Farquhar, nicknamed Buster, was the youngest child and was born in 1911 in Hong Kong." So now I see why the confusion -- one surviving child in Ceylon, one in Surrey, one in Hong Kong. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 16:45, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Male model

I appreciate the desire to maintain gender neutral language as a whole, in the 1930's to be a male model was an exception. As such, it warrants inclusion. In modern parlance, model means many things; it transcends gender and is quite inclusive. Would we deny Amelia Earhart her place as a female aviator? Jack Churchill was, historically, an icon of his gender as Amelia Earhart was of hers. Historical topics should be spoken of in their unique historical terms, and not be subject to modern euphemisms or revisionist thought. If it were any model of the past few decades, I would be in complete agreement. WP:WAW is an essay, neither policy nor guideline - and I am in agreement with much of it. This is about historical context. Scr★pIron^IV 20:55, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Alec Fleming Churchill

I have removed "Alex" from Alec Fleming Churchill and put in a link to the article Alec which explains that "Alec or Aleck is a Scottish form of Alex. It may be a diminutive of the given name Alexander or a given name in its own right." which does away with the need for "Alex" in this article. In fact given the date of Birth the man's first name is almost certainly "Alexander". -- PBS (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Reference[source] to the nickname "Fighting Jack Churchill"

Hi! :) Does anyone know which is the best reference to source the nickname "Fighting Jack Churchill"? I'll need it for this article on WikipediaEN and also WikipediaPT. Thank you in advance and have a nice day :) FranciscoMMartins (talk) 20:12, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Properly sourcing the end of the early life section

Much of the end of the early life section talks about Jack Churchill's male modelling, appearance in A Yank At Oxford, his second place in a military piping competition, and him representing Britian in the 1939 Oslo World Archery Championships. All of these rely on a single Vice article which is not a necessarily reliable source. I am not active or experienced with sourcing things in Wikipedia, but if it helps, here is a list of participants in the 1939 Championships, which is from archery.org. You can also find it here in World Archery's own website. His last name is listed but nothing else. This photo on the left also might be connected to the archery championship if this can be sourced properly, but I haven't been able to discern where this image came from. Oktopoda (talk) 21:55, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

motto

"he was known for the motto: "Any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed." "

Was this a motto or simply smething he is reported to have said? As the reference is not sourced, nor mentioned in the main article, it appears to be folkore.

JF42 (talk) 16:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Street name

The article claims that the street in Jerusalem was named in Jack Churchill's honour, without citing a source for this claim. The Jerusalem municipality office disagrees, saying that the street is named after Winston Churchill.[3] Renerpho (talk) 02:12, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

EDIT: As of 2023, access to the original Jerusalem municipality office url is denied.[4] I had created a snapshot of the page at the time (February 2021), but for some reason that snapshot no longer exists on the Wayback Machine. The oldest archived version of the page that I can find dates to June 2021, and at that time, the page returned an error.[5] Renerpho (talk) 22:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Alternatively, there's also this article from the New York Times, 18 August 1975, quote: "Sir Winston Churchill's grandson gives an address at the dedication of Sir Winston Churchill Boulevard in Jerusalem."[6] Renerpho (talk) 22:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

The issue has remained for more than two years without being discussed. I intend to remove the unsupported sentence: The main road on Mount Scopus is today named "Churchill Boulevard" in his honor.

I would be notifying the editor who originally wrote this, but it was first added by an IP user (in this edit from February 2018) who made just this one edit (user contributions). They originally phrased it as: In his honor, the street leading to the hospital was named Churchill Boulevard.

Instead, I notify Gil.shabtai, who had removed the 2018 version (in this edit from June 2021, possibly reacting to my February 2021 talk page post); and Nelamm, who added it back a second time, in its current form (in this edit from January 2023, maybe without being aware of the previous edits or the talk page section).

Because this is the second time that this claim is challenged, I would be grateful for additional input. I am tagging Layah50, Abraham, B.S., Juan el Demografo, Starman2377, DuncanHill and El C, as users who have recently worked on improving the article, and Farawayman, Mylorin and Zyndell as the most active contributors to this article. Renerpho (talk) 22:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I support removing it. I did some searching a while back, couldn't find anything useful, and sorta forgot about it. I just checked, and there's one page from some random local tour website that claims Winston Churchill was there and that the street was named after him, but I wouldn't call this particularly reliable or conclusive. Juan el Demografo (talk) 01:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Juan el Demografo: I don't know how reliable the source as a whole is, but what it says about Churchill being there in March 1921 is definitely true (we even have a photo of the event on Wiki Commons[7]), and there are reliable sources[8] that include reports of the street being named after him. I'll go ahead and remove it from the article; if others want to disagree, the discussion remains open. Renerpho (talk) 03:05, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Edit revert

@DrBusinessPants, Layah50: I am confused by this recent edit and its revision. Layah50, you say that DrBusinessPants's edit was non-constructive. Could you explain what leads you to that conclusion? I would hyphenate "basket hilted", but that's no reason for a revert... Renerpho (talk) 17:38, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Renerpho, I reverted it because that would make it into a red link. In that case, I apologize for the revert and I'll restore that edit. 🛧Layah50♪🛪 ( 話す? 一緒に飛ぼう！) 18:54, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Layah50: Thanks! I tend to let red links stand, even if they replace blue links, provided that the edit summary gives a good reason for the change. There are many articles that remain to be created, and I wouldn't have been surprised if there's a type of Scottish sword that doesn't yet have its own Wikipedia article. Red links may not look nice, but they are still useful (sometimes). Renerpho (talk) 18:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Surfing: Tidal Bores In Munich?

In the section about surfing, Munich is listed as a spot for tidal surfing, but the only waves existing in Munich are standing waves, some of which are even artificial. 99thGamer (talk) 09:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree, it sounds a little suspicious given how inland Munich is. That detail was added at the same time from User:SmoovOpr8r as the associated ref, so it's unlikely that someone added it randomly. I tried checking the catalogs at my school and local library and neither have The Illustrated Atlas of Surfing History: Wave Riding from Antiquity to Gidget. Juan el Demografo (talk) 22:08, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I find only three libraries worldwide that have a copy of the book (the Heard Museum library in Phoenix, AZ, USA; and two libraries on Hawaii). Greetings from Germany, by the way. There are no tidal waves in Munich. There's the Eisbach, which is quite famous, but it's not a tidal wave. I guess this could be a misunderstanding, either in the source itself, or by the user who added it? Renerpho (talk) 00:04, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello Renerpho and Juan el Demografo. I am not misunderstanding my reference - it really does say that there are "standing river waves in Munich, Germany". It is on page 151 of the book. I have included screenshot images of the page in the book: SmoovOpr8r (talk) 12:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@SmoovOpr8r: Thank you for the quotes from the book. Standing waves and tidal bores are not the same thing. I have rephrased the section in the article according to your source. This should solve the problem. Renerpho (talk) 15:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

SmoovOpr8r I left a note about the images on your Wikicommons user page. Renerpho (talk) 15:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I responded. It is ok to delete the images. They were intended for your viewing - so now that you have resolved the issue they are no longer needed. SmoovOpr8r (talk) 15:41, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

SmoovOpr8r Thanks. I have also removed the linked images from this talk page, in advance of the deletion. May I ask where you responded? I cannot find it. Renerpho (talk) 15:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I apologize, I made an error. I wrote a message but forget to click the reply button. I have done it now. SmoovOpr8r (talk) 15:53, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I see it now. Apologies for the trouble. Renerpho (talk) 16:01, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Copyright and reliability issues

Large sections of this article, which was created in December 2005, depend on an article from the July 2005 issue of WWII History Magazine.[9] In fact, much of it was taken from there ad-verbatim and without attribution (that is to say, those sections were plagiarized). Much of that happened in a single edit in July 2006.[10] Even though a few of those sections are now attributed to the magazine article, the Wikipedia article in its current form is still a big copyright problem. 18 years after they were added, there are still several sections from that one edit that remain without attribution, even though some have been rephrased in the mean time (although not always to the point where they may not still be copyright infringements).

Some examples

Current state (if still unattributed): In September 1944, Churchill, three Royal Air Force officers (survivors of the Great Escape) and Major Johnnie Dodge escaped Sachsenhausen by using a tunnel that they had dug in secret. Churchill and Royal Air Force officer Bertram James attempted to walk to the Baltic coast. They were captured near the German coastal city of Rostock, a few kilometres from the sea. Added on 3 July 2006: In September 1944, he and an RAF officer crawled under the wire through an abandoned drain and set out to walk to the Baltic coast. Their luck was not in, however, and they were recaptured near the coastal city of Rostock, only a few miles from the sea. In time, they were moved to a camp at Niederdorf, Austria. From the WWII History Magazine: in September 1944, he and an RAF officer crawled under the wire through an abandoned drain and set out to walk to the Baltic coast. Their luck was not in, however, and they were recaptured near the coastal city of Rostock, only a few miles from the sea. In time, they were moved to a camp at Niederdorf, Austria. Current state (if still unattributed): In 1952, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer produced the film Ivanhoe shot in Britain featuring Churchill's old rowing companion, Robert Taylor. The studio hired Churchill to appear as an archer, shooting from the walls of Warwick Castle. Added on 3 July 2006: In 1946 Twentieth Century Fox was making Ivanhoe with Churchill’s old rowing companion Robert Taylor and wanted him to appear as an archer, firing from the walls of Warwick Castle. Churchill took the assignment, flown off to the job in an aircraft provided by the movie company. From the WWII History Magazine: Twentieth Century Fox was making Ivanhoe with Churchill’s old rowing companion Robert Taylor and wanted him to appear as an archer, firing from the wall of Warwick Castle. Churchill took the assignment, flown off to the job in an aircraft provided by the movie company. Added on 3 July 2006: Though Churchill might have thought that he was through with war, he was not. After World War II ended, he qualified as a parachutist, transferred to the Seaforth Highlanders, and later ended up in Palestine as second-in-command of 1st Battalion, the Highland Light Infantry. And it was there, in the spring of 1948, just before the end of the British mandate over that troubled land, that he again risked his life for other people. From the WWII History Magazine: Though Jack Churchill might have thought that he was through with war, he was not. After World War II ended, he qualified as a parachutist, transferred to the Seaforth Highlanders, and later ended up in Palestine as second-in-command of 1st Battalion, the Highland Light Infantry. And it was there, in the spring of 1948, just before the end of the British mandate over that troubled land, that he again risked his life for other people. Current state (if still unattributed): In later years, Churchill served as an instructor at the land-air warfare school in Australia, where he became a passionate surfer. In 1955, he was the first man to ride a tidal bore, doing so on a five-foot Severn bore wave for over a mile. Added on 3 July 2006: In later years, Churchill served as an instructor at the land-air warfare school in Australia, where he became a passionate devotee of the surfboard. Back in England, he was the first man to ride the Severn River’s five-foot tidal bore and designed his own board. From the WWII History Magazine: In later years, Churchill served as an instructor at the land-air warfare school in Australia, where he became a passionate devotee of the surfboard. Back in England, he was the first man to ride the Severn River’s five-foot tidal bore and designed his own board. Added on 3 July 2006: As the Pacific war was still raging Churchill was sent to Burma, where the largest land battles against Japan were still raging, but by the time he reached India, Hiroshima and Nagasaki had disappeared in mushroom clouds, and the war abruptly ended. From the WWII History Magazine: And so Churchill was off to Burma, where the largest land war against Japan was still raging. Here, too, however, he met frustration, for by the time he reached India, Hiroshima and Nagasaki had disappeared in mushroom clouds, and the war abruptly ended.

That's not to mention the even bigger issue that the WWII History Magazine article cites no sources, so its veracity cannot be checked. The source (warfarehistorynetwork.com) is of unclear reliability in general. It calls itself the foremost authority on the greatest war in history,[11] but that's according to whom? With that, even the sections that are now attributed to that source (which is currently used 14 times in the article, in addition to the ones that were plagiarized) may be hard to verify. The WWII History Magazine has no Wikipedia article; neither does the Warfare History Network. Not even its publishing company Sovereign Media does. As far as I can tell, the only Wikipedia article concerning one of their publications is Otaku USA, which is a magazine about manga comics. That doesn't inspire confidence that they can be trusted as a source for well-researched historical information! Renerpho (talk) 00:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I have tried to find sources for some of the parts that either rely on WWII History Magazine, or were expanded from sections that initially relied on that source, often without any sources for the initial claims or the expansion (like for the claim that he surfed for over a mile on the Severn bore). The trouble is that almost all the references that I can find online were created after 2005/2006, and are likely influenced by this Wikipedia article (making them WP:CIRCULAR references). What is needed are reliable (ideally academic) sources from before 2005. Renerpho (talk) 00:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The distance surfed on the Severn bore (a mile and a half) is included in this obituary from 1996: [12] The obituary only establishes that this happened in 1954 or later, but that would be fine as long as we don't specify the year ourselves (it allegedly happened in 1955). Renerpho (talk) 17:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The user who is responsible for the problematic 2006 additions is GrahamBould, who are blocked since 2009; see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods/Subpage for organizing CopyVio Cleanup for the (now inactive) WikiProject that was dedicated to cleaning up this user's "massive copyright violations". It appears that the Jack Churchill article was overlooked at that time... Renerpho (talk) 14:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I have to correct that last sentence -- It wasn't overlooked, it just wasn't dealt with! On 11 April 2009, Sadalmelik commented on that WikiProject page about the copyright issues with the Jack Churchill article.[13] Renerpho (talk) 14:38, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations#GrahamBould for possible extant copyright problems with other articles created/expanded by the same user. Renerpho (talk) 19:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

This is currently being discussed at WP:AN, too; the discussion there may inform how to move forward with this and similar articles. Renerpho (talk) 16:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The reliability issues, and how to move forward

With the copyright issue taken care of for the moment (some sections need to be rewritten, but the revdel has taken care of any legal issues), the problem of the dubious reliability of WWII History Magazine remains. I have described those above, in my edits from 00:24, 27 May 2024 and 00:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC). I am always skeptical about information regarding individuals that is based on single references, which then don't actually provide any evidence or primary sources for their claims. That's especially problematic if the source is of unclear reliability. That is the case here, which is why I have tagged the article's accuracy as disputed. Some of the statements currently cited with reference to the magazine will probably turn out to be true; some will be true but are unverifiable. Whether there is contrafactual information remains to be seen (I have no evidence for this), but even the unverifiable information has to go if the source is deemed unreliable. Renerpho (talk) 16:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I have marked the parts that use WWII History Magazine as a source with ^{[unreliable source?]} tags. This seemed more appropriate to me than to "gut" the article, considering that many of those claims may turn out to be true and verifiable from elsewhere. I think this is different from the copyrighted sections (like that about surfing, see above), which have been removed, and need to be rewritten. For the surfing thing specifically, the 1996 obituary linked above should work. Renerpho (talk) 11:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

References