Talk:Islay Herald

I am entirely intrigued as why the article as it stands is 'incomplete' and a 'stub'. There doesn't seem to be very much material available generally around on Islay Herald - or indeed on any of the heralds etc (English or Scots) - and if someone on the project knows better perhaps they could publish the material.

F J Grant (Manual of Heraldry, Edinburgh, 1914; available online at http://www.archive.org/stream/manualofheraldry00granrich#page/n5/mode/2up) simply mentions the date 1493.

More information would presumably require detailed research at the Lyon Court, the National Library of Scotland, and among hosts of private papers (including the English College of Arms) and need publishing first before it could be incorporated in an article here.

Failing any indication of other material being available I shall, eventually get round to removing suggestions that the article is incomplete.

Mich Taylor (talk) 07:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do not remove 'incomplete' and 'stub' statuses from the article. Just because we currently cannot find enough information- does not mean that any future users will face the same problem. The tags are an invitation for future users who can complete the article. No one single editor can judge whether the article is 'finished' or 'complete', in a sense all articles on Wikipedia is an ongoing work. What we do know, is that surely that the article is 'incomplete' since we can only provide information on just two officers. This will indeed need more research and a greater access to information. In fact the tags were created exactly for that purposes: to tell and invite readers and other editors to have a go at a it. Unsightly as the tags maybe, they serve an important purpose. Pleased do not remove them, if you do I will put them back.

Walter Scott mentions an 'Islay' or an 'Isley' Herald was present with King James IV prior to the Battle of Flodden Field, and was then killed with his master subsequently. Again further research would be required on this. Sodacan (talk) 10:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

By any standard the article is as complete as it can be at present - like other articles are meant to be.

'What we do know, is that surely that the article is 'incomplete' since we can only provide information on just two officers' It's an article about Islay Herald surely, not others?

I am not sure what the Shirra has to do with this. Surely it's documentary, graphic, archaeological etc evidence that counts, not the unreferenced thoughts of the early 19th century Scotland's answer to Jeffrey Archer.

Though in one respect you are quite right. The article is incomplete - there is no reference to F J Grant's little book - Islay is on p 11 of gthe 1914 edition - available as a pdf download online.

"The Scottish officers of arms formed an important part of the Royal Household, and were in attendance on the King on all occasions of state. Besides the duties enumerated above, they were employed in accompanying embassies abroad, making royal proclamation throughout the country, carrying important messages of state between the King and his subjects, and a summons for treason could only be served by a herald or pursuivant. As early as 1364 mention is made of William Pittolloch, Herald; and in 1365, in the Great Seal Register, of John Trupour, Carrick Herald (probably a mistake for pursuivant). Lyon Herald appears in 1377, and ten years later as Lyon King of Heralds. Rothesay Herald, officer of the Prince of Scotland, is first mentioned in 1401: Marchmont, a title derived from Marchmont, the ancient name of the Royal Castle of Roxburgh, in 1436 ; Snowdoun, derived from a part of Stirhng Castle, in 1448; Albany, from the Duke of Albany, a title of one of the King's sons, in 145 1 (he is called pursuivant, however, in 1447); Ross, from the Royal Earldom of the same, in 1474; and tslay, from the island of that name, in 1493. Other heralds are also found from time to time, such as Ireland in 1498 and Orkney in 1581. Of the pursuivants, Carrick, Pursuivant of the Prince, who was Earl of Carrick, appears first in the year 1365 ; Unicorn in 1426; Aliszaiin 1426; Dragancein 1429; Diligence in 1472; Dingwall in 1479; Montrose, Bute and Ormond in 1488; Falkland in 1493; Ireland and Kintyre in 1495 '> March in 1515 ; and Ettrick, "pretendit pursuivant," in 157 1. The number of heralds and pursuivants became fixed at The Heraldic Executive six of each by the reign of King James VI., and continued at this number till by the Act of 1867 their numbers were gradually reduced to three of each as vacancies occurred. The titles now [at the time of writing] in use are Ross, Rothesay, and Albany for the heralds; and March, Unicorn, and Carrick for the pursuivants".

FRANCIS J. GRANT, W.S. Rothesay Herald THE MANUAL OF HERALDRY A CONCISE DESCRIPTION OF THE SEVERAL TERMS USED, AND CONTAINING A DICTIONARY OF EVERY DESIGNATION IN THE SCIENCE (NEW AND REVISED EDITION,) EDINBURGH: JOHN GRANT 31 GEORGE IV. BRIDGE 1914

p 11

Perhaps you would like to make the article less incomplete?

Mich Taylor (talk) 18:27, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes I will continue to work on the article - but it is a work in progress. It will take time and research, however others must be allowed to know that there are still missing information from the article that is why the tags are there. Your personal opinion of Scott aside, Islay's mention in the book, even of a fictional nature is still a something- in lieu of the present dilemma (something better than nothing). Also, when I said 'two officers' I meant the two we have listed (Don Pottinger and Alastair Campbell), since the title was created in 1493, surely there must be more- this is why the article is incomplete. Sodacan (talk) 07:46, 13 July 2011 (UTC)