Talk:Melbourne Rebels

Separating ARC and S15 teams

I'd like to propose moving this article to Melbourne Rebels(ARC) and developing this page for the new Super 15 team. We can then put a disambiguation at the top reading
For the team of the same name in the Australian Rugby Championship please see Melbourne Rebels(ARC)

That way, people coming will find information on the current team, not the old one.

Thoughts?
Paul
Paul Roberton (talk) 14:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

(in jean luc picard voice) Make it so.

need to make it upto date though, theres lots of information out there that has been followed by the media and has been looked over.--Hatgreg (talk) 14:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I think we should just "be bold" and do it, otherwise the article will begin to amalgamate like it already has.--Hatgreg (talk) 10:52, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I moved the page, need to refine it now, History from the start of the Announcement of the expansion of the super 14 to current should be included, other content should be added as it is released. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hatgreg (talk • contribs) 11:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

This paged should have been moved to Melbourne Rebels (ARC) if you wanted two seperate articles because now the history of the page is not left intact for people to see when they go to that page --sss333 (talk) 02:06, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Hatgreg - A few things to remember

References always go at the bottom, so don't just keep adding things beneath the previous section.

I like that you're enthusiastic and have ideas, but take a breath! I'm trying to make practical changes but you're half a step ahead of me and I'm no mind reader lol.... Make a list of the things you need done, and I'll help. You don't need to do everything yourself and you don't need to do it so quickly. Put your list here, and between us we can manage it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proberton (talk • contribs) 11:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

sorry, the references were like that direct from the previous article i created and someone edited it, i just did a direct copy.--Hatgreg (talk) 12:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Colours

Watch the colours of the team strip. I've seen photographs suggesting the shirt is predominantly BLUE with two white hoops. I'll find it and post a link here. 12:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proberton (talk • contribs)

Found it! Its a photo from the Heraldsun [1] you'll see the differences from the jersey worn by the ARC team. Paul Roberton (talk) 12:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Thats the Axemen Jersey, for the victorian schoolboys, those boys are the 3 or 4 Victorians in the Australian Schoolboys squad and they will probably be carried over to the academy possibly for signings.--Hatgreg (talk) 12:30, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Things to do

Here is a list of Things that need to be added to this article

• Consider images of signed player, e.g. 'Wallaby Adam Freier congratulated by teammates Sam Cordingly and Julian Huxley for scoring Australia's second try against Canada, RWC 2007,' image by Sam Herd.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21694664@N03/2338326986 flickr says: "Anyone can see this photo." --wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 13:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wcrosbie (talk • contribs)

• Repair metata for refs re new signings: Somerville & MacDonald i.e. his (ACT Brumbies) was before he returned to NSW, to Sydney Uni to for the 2009 and joining Waratahs' squad in 2010 (including playing in the Tahs pre-season).--wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 06:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm really a new comer to the the Super 14 but if he's more recently with the Waratahs then by all means let's take out that Brumbies reference. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 22:38, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

By the way, this Betham/Brumbies idea was copied to http://www.rebel-army.com/meet-the-rebels --wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 11:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

• Continuing developments as they come

e.g.

--Hatgreg (talk) 12:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

• A history of the teams conception, from the original bid for the fourth team of australia

You're talking about the bid that went ultimately went to WA? I'll get started on on that. Will work on it in my sandbox here => User:Proberton/sandbox9and the history of rugby in victoria

We shouldn't do ANYTHING on "rumoured signings" its against Wikipedia policy- they call it "crystal balling".

Paul Roberton (talk) 12:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

sorry i more meant passing mention like when evans said they had lined up cheika.--Hatgreg (talk) 13:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't the capacity be listed at the lower rugby capacity? By my understanding the MRS will use temporary stands in the in goal area to bring the capacity to 31 000 during football(soccer) games. Rugby would not have these extra seats. Crazydude22 (talk) 16:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I understood the opposite to be true- Victory fans wanted standing room only behind the goals. I will try and find something out, but we might be better off asking some of the editors of the MRS page. Paul Roberton (talk) 23:05, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Upon reading the MRS page, you're quite right but I haven't found what the rugby capacity is. Paul Roberton (talk) 23:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

On what i've read it goes 31,001 and then 31,500 for the soccer, though im unsure, the storm advertise it as a capacity of 31,001. (dirty mungoes)--Hatgreg (talk) 10:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Under the section on application for 15th licence, should it not be noted that the Southern Kings bid was considered the better one in rugby terms, but that Melbourne won due to TV rights?[2] Crazydude22 (talk) 07:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

crazydude you could also note, through the website not based in south africa that the decision was also based on the whole its an australian conference thing and the evening out of teams, and many south africans disillusionment with that bid and cheeky watson? --Hatgreg (talk) 02:29, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Well if you looked at when bids were first called for, nowhere did SANZAR say that the team had to be from Australia, or even based in Aus. I remember a New Zealand union tried to bid as well, but were rejected by the NZRU. Many South Africans may have been against Cheeky Watson ( a whole other matter in my opinion), but the panel appointed by SANZAR stilled said that they felt the SOuthern Kings were a better rugby option, and would be able to be 'up and running' far more quickly and easily. Thet also said that they felt that having a South African team would reduce the TV rights that SANZAR would recieve. Crazydude22 (talk) 10:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

References

players

Schalk Burger, Jacque Fourie and Bryan Habanna have not signed for the Rebels, that's pure speculation. Removing now. Crazydude22 (talk) 14:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I can't find sources to confirm the signings of Johnston and Gasnier. Nothing on the official page and nothing but speculation on Google. Paul Roberton (talk) 08:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I've found no internet sources for the recent additions to the page. I've tagged them and will wait 24hrs. If someone hasn't referenced them by this time tomorrow, I'll remove them. I'd suggest we only add players to the list as they're announced by reputable media outlets ( ie not blogs, I'd suggest). Paul Roberton (talk) 05:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC) Upon realising the people named were either dead or not rugby players I deleted them lol... Paul Roberton (talk) 06:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep an eye out on the media outlets in the new few days/week... Mortlock seems on the verge [3]... Paul Roberton (talk) 06:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Cipriani was at FB, now FH

Although Cipriani played Flyhalf for the Wasp, Macqueen did say he wanted him at Fullback for the Rebels.

[Herald Sun http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/club-not-cash-lures-cipriani-to-rebels/story-e6frf9if-1225832383606] "Rebels coach Rod Macqueen has been in regular contact with Cipriani, who he has pencilled in as his fullback, since he was interviewed by assistant coach Damien Hill and recruiting consultant John Connolly in London last month." Paul Roberton (talk) 13:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

However, Cipriani's Rebels' profile says flyhalf.[4]
wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 07:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that's a fairly reliable and authoritative source! I knew he played 5/8 for the Wasps and saw the back-and-forth on this page previously. I'd say its pretty water tight now. (Need to move him up the other halves, so the list is still in order by field position) Comes.amanuensis (talk) 07:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Articles to emulate

I think we're over reaching a little.I've been having a look at some articles; Melbourne Storm, Western Force and Melbourne Heart. I think we can dial the history section back a bit, particularly the early (pre 1900) stuff. ( I might put it into the rugby union in Victoria article). The bid process can be culled a little bit, and we could/should make more reference to the attendances at test matches, world cup, comm games sevens etc. Thoughts? Paul Roberton (talk) 09:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Footnoting the playing list

This list has had all sorts of people adding names to it. In the early days, three people were added, were either dead or not even rugby players. Players were added to this list on pure speculation. Adam Freier was added because the Rebels were "talking" to him. The ARU didn't ratify his recruitment. Richard Kingi was added prematurely because the Rebels couldn't announce him because of the embargo. Michael Lipman was on that list also but the ARU rejected him because he refused a drug test. We need those footnotes to control the page, until the Rebels, or some reliable media publishes the playing list in full. Thanks. Paul ( Paul Roberton (talk)) 03:01, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The playing list is now doing the rounds of media outlets, and is also now available (finally) on the Rebels website here. But for the last few signings, the list is more or less up to date. Perhaps we can think about removing the footnotes to the player list, with a singular reference

"taken from The Melbourne Rebels [ http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/player-profile.aspx official website ] as at XX/YY/2010" ? Comes.amanuensis (talk) 06:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

See, however, [ http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/Home/PlayerProfiles/tabid/202/language/en-AU/Default.aspx Player Profiles ] --wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 23:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Eddie Jones says that the Rebels shouldn't be in Super Rugby

From News24:

Johannesburg - Former Wallaby coach Eddie Jones on Thursday said an extra Australian team should not have been added to the Super rugby competition. The Melbourne Rebels are the new franchise named to play in the inaugural Super 15 next year, Sanzar (South Africa New Zealand Australia Rugby) having decided to expand the current Super 14 tournament. But Jones, who coached the Brumbies to the 2001 Super 12 title and also coached the Reds in the Super 14, said the Rebels should not have been included.

"The reason they're in is because of TV rights. The current 14-team competition is just starting to find its feet and this year is the most competitive it's been for a while, with eight or nine teams in contention. The addition of another Australian franchise is not good for Australian rugby nor for the competition," Jones told Reuters in Johannesburg on Thursday.

The man who steered the Wallabies to the 2003 World Cup final said the current four Australian franchises were trying to eke out quality players as it is.

"Another Australian side is just going to weaken the third and fourth teams. If you consider South Africa, they have a great number of players but can still only support four very good Super 14 sides. It's unrealistic for Australia to have five teams and it will be bad for Wallaby rugby in the short-term, for the next 10 to 15 years," Jones said.

The Melbourne Rebels have been allowed an exemption to sign 10 overseas players and have announced Waratahs hooker and former Wallaby Adam Freier, former national captain Stirling Mortlock and England flyhalf Danny Cipriani as their first acquisitions.

But Jones said he believed the Rebels would struggle due to a lack of top-class players. "They haven't exactly signed a whole lot of quality players. There are only two areas in Australia that produce rugby union players - New South Wales and Queensland - and if you are a youngster from there and you have a choice between Melbourne or Perth to live in, it's a no-brainer where you'll go.

"So the Force are the side that will really be affected and they're weak enough as it is. They spent huge amounts of money on players like Matt Giteau and Nathan Sharpe, and now what?" Jones said.

The Force are currently 13th in the Super 14 standings, having won just one of their seven matches. Jones did, however, have praise for the new law interpretations being used in the Super 14, which he said have reduced the amount of kicking that caused so much ire last season.

"It's the best thing to happen to rugby. Last year we had 65 to 70 kicks per game and now it is down to 50 so there is a much greater balance between attack and defence. The quality of the rugby is much better." Jones is in South Africa as a coach for the Winning Ways program set up by Jake White, whom he assisted when the Springboks won the World Cup in 2007.

White said he also favoured the new law interpretations, but was quick to point out that a territorial kicking game will still be vital and that it remained a cardinal sin to try and run the ball from your own 22m area. "The changes have been fantastic and they've allowed more attacking spark. But you still need field position - 74% of tries have been scored from the first three phases, so there is still an emphasis on territory and a kicking game is still important," White told Reuters. "It's still no use keeping your own ball through 10 phases and not getting away from your own territory."

White said he did not believe rugby needed to go as far as increasing the number of points for a try in order to encourage attacking play.

"Maybe you should only get a bonus point if you score four tries more than your opposition though, because that would keep the intensity through 80 minutes," White said.[5]

Now I think that a comment like this, from someone of Jones' rugby standing should be included. Crazydude22 (talk) 12:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I do believe this is probably the most pertinent. Stick it in a quote under the "franchise" section. Good for maintaining NPOV.

"The reason they're in is because of TV rights. The current 14-team competition is just starting to find its feet and this year is the most competitive it's been for a while, with eight or nine teams in contention. The addition of another Australian franchise is not good for Australian rugby nor for the competition...

"Another Australian side is just going to weaken the third and fourth teams...It's unrealistic for Australia to have five teams and it will be bad for Wallaby rugby in the short-term, for the next 10 to 15 years," Jones said.

Comes.amanuensis (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

perhaps you should add that noone in australia takes jones seriously and thinks he has a few bones to pick with the ARU administration since being sacked by them for not being a very good coach and not being very good to work with. --Hatgreg (talk) 07:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Hyperlinks; Weeks and Jones

The Laurie Weeks link you just reinstated links to a female fiction author. The Luke Jones link is to the article about a soccer defender. I'm removing the links. comes.amanuensis 12:03, 18 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Comes.amanuensis (talk • contribs)

Logo

The Melbourne Rebels official website have removed the ARC logo from their homepage, making the ARC logo displayed here now redundant. If there are no objections in the next 12 hours, I'll take it down. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 01:28, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I've got a contact with the media unit at the Melbourne Rebels, and have emailed her about uploading the new logo as it appears on the website. I've also put out a call for free-use images of the playing strip Luke Jones wore at the Weary Dunlop lunch. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 01:24, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The original image of the logo, (uploaded 5 August 2010) is 100% free use with the consent of the Melbourne Rebels media unit. The user licence and attribution can be seen here: [6]. The changes in images have been in good-faith but the image we should be using is the one that has the permission for free use from the MElbourne Rebels I'm reverting to the original image. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 07:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Well the old image (the licenced one) i wouldn't think complies with or maybe just inches it into quality standards, its cloudy, pixelated and misrepresents the logo. The lossless SVG is a rip from the super rugby information and media launch booklet available online from the same source as in the new Super Rugby page logo, Waratahs, Reds, Force and Brumbies I put up. You're applying licencing against quality. Why not get in contact with them and ask for use of the Vector image if it is that much of a problem, however I doubt it would, especially since its intended use and copyright is stated within the Logo licensing agreement one has to apply when uploading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hatgreg (talk • contribs) 08:50, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes I agree that the newer image is a better quality image. I also agree that I am applying licencing against quality but that is as it should be. Respect the copyright first. I don't feel comfortable asking more of them when I thought the original agreement was reasonable. If someone wants to contact them and report their reponses, they can be contacted on [7] Comes.amanuensis (talk) 10:47, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

this isn't a company, the rebel army, a private supporters group or illegal entity, this is wikipedia, the open, and free encyclopedia, if the wikimedia foundation had to aquire absolute, and personal permission from every company or brand image it displays, at reasonable resolution, then it would be out of business, on account of the people it would have to hire, I'm not going to do anything, but I believe your editing is unreasonable regulation of an article. especially considering the amount of work i've dedicated to progressing all the super rugby articles in terms of displayable graphics. As i have spoken to harold mitchell before, I believe he is a reasonable man and would understand this.--RugbyFuture (talk) 12:32, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

A couple of things. I don't feel I'm unreasonably regulating the article, I'm just trying to be responsible by observing the licence and permissions that are in place.I reiterate my point of encouraging other people to contact Rebels Media and abide by what ever agreement you make with them. As one who takes an interest in ethics and communication, I find the case of the National Portrait Gallery against Wikipedia [8] very enlightening. They attempted to sue a wikipedia contributor for uploading images without permission. They failed due to lack of parity in the copyright law. In Australia its different. The case of Gutnick_v_Dow_Jones (while a defamation case) sets precedent for any damages incurred in Australia to be settled in an Australian court. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 11:38, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

ah, we have a lawyer on our hands, you're basically communicating that you don't want to field any legal contributions to this image as you might be sued by the franchise, however, as the uploader wouldn't I hold most of the responsibilities in this case (of course, other than wikipedia). you see, this isn't your article, in fact, i was the one who shifted this article in the first place. I would like to see any corporation within the rugby sphere, especially one so public, sue a 19 year old logo designer, linked with various "heavily informed fans" forums and old boy clubs quietly. in any case, this page, article whatever you call it isn't within your domain, you have no explicit link with the image, and therefore cannot be litigated in any offence. This of course isn't to mention the obvious licence agreement you have to fill in which, to all available knowledge would protect the uploader or atleast wikipedia. In any case, wikipedia would be the most liable entity in any case, and would stop anything of any clear illegality.--RugbyFuture (talk) 13:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Not a lawyer, but a communications professional, a member of a professional body and bound by a code of ethics and with a good handle on copyright. I'm not afraid of litigation, I choose to respect the copyright law as it applies in Australia. If you want to renegotiate with the Rebels for a better quality image, I encourage you to do so. If you want to restore the image, I'll not revert your change, but do so at your own peril. At no time did I assert any ownership of article, so please do not allege that I have. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 23:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Length

This article is now 61kb long (and almost ready for a split I should think) and yet the Rebels haven't played a game. Probably time for a tidy up and a cull. Squad to start training October 1. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 22:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Past | Present | Future ...

Once the squad starts training the team's history, its bid, and squad's formation will become less relevant.

Are there some sections that could be removed straight away? --wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 23:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

wcrosbie, I think the first 2 pars of the history could could into the 'rugby union in Victoria' article. That third par could go into "previous bids". Dump the restructure of SANZAR, I don't think we need it. Do you think we need the attendance figures? I'm not sure. Take the club rugby out of the franchise area. Split the franchise area section into Franchise and Reception (Jones v Macqueen). I don't think we need the list of past Victorian players (Weary Dunlop etc), that could go on the 'rugby in victoria page'. Keep the stuff about the player embargo, and Macqueen's philosophy on culture building, Cipriani as the first signing; dump the rest(ie player announcements), write a paragraph on the foreign players, and the rugby league converts, and then lead into the squad list. As soon as the squad is finalised, reference the Rebels Official website and remove all the player signing footnotes; that should thin out the footnotes at the bottom which is insufferably long. Need to get back to work, but if you want to perhaps create a list of things to do and add your own thoughts we can get started. Cheers, Comes.amanuensis (talk) 03:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Comes.amanuensis, this sounds good. Would it be wise to begin by moving stuff out of the way? The next milestone might be the creation of a skeleton structure that relevant to readers esp. October 2010 trough to February 2011.

I notice journo's sometimes copy whole sections from the article, therefore it could be valuable to keep the refs to the signed players, and comments by coaching staff (say, until the Reblel's first Super 15 game in 2011).

It would be good to have a recent-history section that takes in the signings and pre-2011 season publicity.

--wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 08:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

wcrosbie,

The text is awash with quotes as it is. When you put tabs into the inline citations, it creates massive amounts extra lines of text to sift through- which makes editing the article difficult. Can we come to some kind of compromise please- perhaps reducing the length citations to 3 lines instead of six? Thanks, Comes.amanuensis (talk) 13:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

ok. wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 03:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm thinking that we could go with a system that looks something like this example-

cite web | last = Silkstone | first = Dan | web = Sydney Morning Herald

| publisher = Fairfax | date = 2009-09-30 | title = Rivals merge to revive super bid

| url = http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/rivals-merge-to-revive-super-bid-20091124-jdr5.html

| accessdate = 2010-03-22 | last accessed = 2010-06-17

I'm debating the merits of squeezing it any tighter but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It won't affect the reference list, but will mean we can fit more of the article in the edit window. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 06:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense. Should it be: work = Sydney Morning Herald or newspaper = Sydney Morning Herald?

I've been adised to avoid newspaper (for an online article), and that links are not needed within references
wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 09:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I'd agree with you about links within references. This was one straight from the article for the sake of convenience. I think we stay with the convention as much as possible. So we're looking at keeping author (last name, first name, work) on the first line; publisher, date of publication ( if its on the article) title on the second line, url, then accession data. Some citations require more detail than others but I think the gist of it is pretty good. I'm not intending to go back and redo the existing ones at the minute... perhaps we can change one or two each time we add a new reference? Might take a month or two but will be less laborious that way... Comes.amanuensis (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 14:06, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

What is Troy Thomson's role?

Troy Thomson was Storm's High Performance Manager. What is his Rebels' role?
--wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 21:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

High Performance Manager [9]Comes.amanuensis (talk) 22:38, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

References

15th licence

Australian spelling (i.e. licence not license) is preferred, isn't it?
Changed to licence today. wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 02:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Is Ben Darwin scrum coach or not?

There's are conflicting roles for Ben Darwin. Is he: 1. Scrum coach/Video Analyst - Ben Darwin or later, 2. Video Analyst Ben Darwin. Which is more accurate?
wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 02:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

References

Jarrod Saffy

Yes Saffy was born in South Africa, but the flag icon isn't supposed to represent that. The flag icon represents the country the player is currently eligible to represent. That said, his eligibility isn't cut and dried either. The Jarrod Saffy article currently indicates he's eligible to represent Australia, South Africa and Lebanon. He's represented Australia at school boy level, Colts (U/21) and Sevens in Rugby Union. Given that we can't put three flag icons in the template, let's leave the flag icon as Australian until he plays in a senior international side. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 09:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

No but RSA dont have a school boys team so you cant represent someone that doesnt exist. Der! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.189.79 (talk) 06:46, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Because your point doesn't justify using RSA instead of Aus, I've changed it back to AUS. wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 08:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't be bothered sifting through the history to find the culprit, but someone had changed Saffy's flag icon back to RSA. See above. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 14:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

2011 season

I created a new 2011 season section. I added it at the bottom of the article, but in hindsight, perhaps is should be a subsection of History? wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 03:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I've had a look at some of the other Super teams' articles, as well as the Super Rugby article. There really isn't any sign of "round by round" results as such as there's a an article for each Super Rugby season. Given its the inaugural season we might have a case for documenting it though.

Also, while perusing other articles, I noticed a general consistency (although not rigid template) within each of the conferences team articles. It's probably time we brought this article in line with others. Both the Queensland Reds and New South Wales Waratahs articles are B-standard. We should probably aim to get this article in line with those, and up to B-standard by the start of pre-season matches. There's quite a lot from History, 15th license and establishment that could go in the lead for starters... Comes.amanuensis (talk) 09:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair comments. The Queensland Reds and New South Wales Waratahs go back to 1996 or earlier. The Rebels are only looking forward, to 2011. Fans and journalists might be interested in:

* The inaugural squad

* The coaches and team behind the team

* The contest past/present/future

* The squad's preparation for Super 15.

I suppose the key question is how can these topics be given space, without the article becoming unwieldy? Melbourne's a special case because so few know very much about the code. Comes.amanuensis, do you think it's time to delete some more of the page? wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 10:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

wcrosbie- All reasonable suggestions I believe. Your point about Melbournians knowing little about rugby union is a point very well made, but we need to make sure we're less about Rebels PR and more about the encyclopaedic value of the article. Having said that, doing the latter well will have a natural affect on the former.

The article is 59KB long, the criteria for a basic split kicks in somewhere around 40KB. The lead is probably too short. Stripping back the history and putting it in the lead is probably a good idea but I its a pretty good snap shot of how the Rebels got to this point. That said, if we want FA status, it should be less a narrative anyway. I'll do some work in my sandbox and invite some comment Comes.amanuensis (talk) 03:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I suggest taking the following three section and moving them together to another page?

* Melbourne_Rebels#History

* Melbourne_Rebels#The_15th_licence

* Melbourne_Rebels#Establishment wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 05:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I've been toying with compressing the above into the lead: here . Thoughts? Comes.amanuensis (talk) 03:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Howabout including the background as 'histroy' in the first section following the lead? wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 09:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Melbourne Rebels squad template

The following players' articles have the template "Melbourns Rebels squad". Should this be "Melbourne Rebels squad"? wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 10:42, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

That's a great template! Could we put the assistant and technical coaches in there too? Comes.amanuensis (talk) 02:46, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Created a new one; template: melbourne rebels squad:

{{Melbourne rebels squad}}

The template(s) are working; I've renamed the "Melbourns Rebels squad" template to "Melbourne Rebels squad". From what I can gather, appropriate re-directions seem to have been created. The template link on player-pages can be changed to Melbourne in due course.wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 03:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Several (assistant) coaches are now listed the template. Most don't have articles (yet). wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 07:29, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I wrote a piece on Mark Bakewell for the Rebel Army. I can probably wiki it up. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 23:27, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I've lacked significant motivation to make sure each of the players wiki articles now reflect the Rebels are their current club. How about we divide the playing list and get started on that? I'm particularly interested in making sure that info boxes on those articles are up to date.Comes.amanuensis (talk) 03:38, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Inaugural squad section be divided into two parts? At least in terms of a separate "recruitment" table to avoid confusion with the squad. I would love to see a better squad template set in use for all Super Rugby teams, much like the rls template used for rugby league or those used for basketball teams.
Cashie (talk) 16:32, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Trial matches

With the preseason matches about to start, we'll have an excellent opportunity to get photos of the team and players in uniform. If anyone has an SLR camera, digital or otherwise, could you get down to a Olympic Park or Morwell? Comes.amanuensis (talk) 01:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Stadium capacity

I did bring this up before, but now I have a source. For rugby the stadium will have a capacity of 29,500, source: Herald Sun Crazydude22 (talk) 14:41, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes I saw that too. It's based on the space requirements so that Fox Sports get their desired camera angles. Givent that there will most likely never be free to air coverage from the ground, its probably safe to assume that will be the norm. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 02:40, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

2012

The Rebels have already had activity on player movement. Don't want to crystal ball but the following are the definites and the "may bes" we can stay on top of.

OUTS:

• Rod Macqueen http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/DesktopModules/PackFlashPublish/ArticleDetail/ArticleDetailPrint.aspx?ArticleID=3614&Template=Standard_Print.ascx&siteID=5
• Somerville out (ret), see above for reference
• O'Neil out (ret), see above for reference
• Cordingley out (ret), see above for reference. But did he remain in in Melbourne, coaching? wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 08:45, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rooney out (Toulon) http://www.espnscrum.com/francetop14-2010-11/rugby/story/141160.html
• Peter Betham out (back to Waratahs) http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/ashleycooper-named-for-waratahs-trial-20120214-1t2yd.html wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 07:10, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
• Hoani MacDonald (Highlanders training-squad) http://www.thehighlanders.co.nz/our-team/wider-training-squad/185-hoani-macdonald wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 20:06, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

IN:

• Mitch Inman, Centre Western Force http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/News/ArticleDetails/tabid/270/ArticleID/3513/Default.aspx
• James O'Connor, FH, IC, WG (? Where the hell will they put him?), Western Force http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/News/ArticleDetails/tabid/270/ArticleID/3513/Default.aspx
• Kurtley Beale, (See above), Waratahs http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/News/ArticleDetails/tabid/270/ArticleID/2173/Default.aspx
• James King, Lock, North Harbour, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10747372* Paul Alo-Emile, Prop, Western Force http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/rugby-union/rebels-sign-young-force-prop/story-e6frfgkf-1226134935896
• Lloyd Johansson, Centre, http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/News/ArticleDetails/tabid/270/ArticleID/4433/Default.aspx

On trial http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/News/ArticleDetails/tabid/270/ArticleID/4018/Default.aspx

• Luke Holmes, Hooker (Western Force via Rebel Rising) (has a profile on Rebels website http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/Team/Player/tabid/297/playerid/33/Default.aspx)
• Liam Windon, FB, West Harbour http://www.westharbourrugby.com.au/player-details.php?player_id=47
• Eddie Aholelei, LH Prop, Manly http://www.nswrugby.com.au/NSWRugby/News/NewsArticle/tabid/374/ArticleID/3903/Default.aspx
• Nigel Ah Wong, Flanker, Sunnybank http://sunnybankrugby.com.au/content.php?contentid=118&categoryid=3
• Pama Fou Winger, Wests (ACT) http://www.westslions.com.au/AnnouncementRetrieve.aspx?ID=46098
• David Hardisty SH, Melbourne RFC http://www.sports.unimelb.edu.au/media/PDF/Victorian_State_Team_v_Vikings.pdf
• Ben Matwijow Lock, Norths http://www.northsrugby.com.au/s/players-coaches-39708.html?player_id=360357
• Cadeyrn Neville Lock, Manly http://www.nswrugby.com.au/NSWRugby/News/NewsArticle/tabid/374/ArticleID/3903/Default.aspx

Comes.amanuensis (talk) 04:51, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Later speculation

• Dave Dennis (Waratahs Flanker) http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/rugby-union/waratahs-keen-to-retain-dave-dennis/story-e6frg7o6-1226289851913 wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 22:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

2012 Squad

Just posted the 2012 squad up. Will tweak and invite tweaks. Also, new squad template now available at template:Melbourn Rebels squad 2012 Comes.amanuensis (talk) 04:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

James O'Connor

James O'Connor has been listed on the club website as a centre. Granted, anyone not living under a rock would know he's a candidate to play Fly half, but to place it on the wikipedia page flies in the face of information provided by the Rebels. Secondly, any prediction of a move into the halves is crystal balling. O'Connor's Rebels profile can be seen on the official website here: http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/Team/Player/tabid/297/playerid/36/Default.aspx Comes.amanuensis (talk) 10:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

File:Mortlick jersey.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Extended Player Squad (EPS)

The Rebels have 5 players in their extended playing squad: Luke Holmes, Nic Stirzaker, Cadeyrn Neville, Isiah Mosese, and Eddie Aholelei. Should we put them in the squad list here, or can someone think of a suitable place to list them? Comes.amanuensis (talk) 00:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The 5 were contracted in September 2011. Around Australia 25 EPS players are funded by the ARU, the EPS system has been introduced to achieve a greater spread of playing talent across the 5 Super Rugby teams (ref Rebels Media Unit, 9/30/2011, i.e. 30 September 2011).

"Each Super Rugby team is allowed 5 EPS players who will train full time with the team's 30-man Core Playing Squad (CPS), but the player will only be available for selection in the match-day 22 when the CPS is depleted by injury." wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 03:38, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

As of May, 2012, Aholelei, Holmes, Neville, and Stirzaker, have all been included in the match-day 22. Mosese, as yet, has not. wcrosbie wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 03:38, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Supporters

Is it time for a new Rebel Army page, a la Barmy Army? Why? Because, as discussed, the page is overly long. And because the citations need work. And because those who care about the Army could edit the page, reducing edits here. wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 00:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The Barmy Army is the supporter group for a national side and are rather well known the world over and have notability in their own right. I would argue that while the Rebel Army are reasonably notable in rugby circles, they don't warrant their own article space - at least not yet. I put those citations in, in a bid to save the section only insofar as their reference in mainstream media. The block quotes are probably excessive and I'd be happy to whittle that back to something more modest, and just leave the inline citations. As for length of the page, it is getting somewhat longer. 44k is the usually a measure the article is getting too big. Splitting a page due to edits, I'm not sure I understand the concern. The Rebel Army section remained largely untouched, and that article itsself suffered little in the off season other than for updating the squad. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

These sentences could use a proof read: "}}(sic) Adam Freier also referenced the Army in his column on 'Rugby Heaven' (Fairfax) Th"e Rebel Army motto is "by the fans for the fans" ... Never have I been a prouder player as I walk past the clan at the games, and never have I felt so normal when I swing by and have a chat. They are very much part of the Rebels team."

The supporters' section is still overly long, imho. wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 05:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The typos have been fixed. If anyone feels the section is too long then please edit it. I put those quotes in to justify the retention of the section, after it had rightfully been deleted due to footnotes to social media (not really reliable sources. If anyone feels they can edit in such a manner that shortens it while preserving the mainstream references then I'd encourage them to do so. I'm up for any reasonable discussion or proposal about the article . being culled/split or otherwise. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 06:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

"Current" Internationals?

Freier, Mortlock, Lipman have retried. Blake hasn't played a game in how long? Gerrard and Huxley have left, as has Adam Byrnes (Russa, apparently). How about we start with the 30 man squad Robbie Deans names a few weeks ago? Add Delve, fair enough, he played for Wales against the Brumbies I THINK. Mitch Inman made the initial squad but hasn't gone any further but its being generous. I'll propose the following and make the changes accordingly.

Kurtley Beale
Gareth Delve
Mitch Inman 
James O'Connor
Nick Phipps
Cooper Vuna

Comes.amanuensis (talk) 08:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Damon Edmunds

I have done google search: "Damon Edmonds" AND "Melbourne Rebels". All I get is his linkedIN profile. There is no reference to him on the Melbourne Rebels website. There has been no media release (I am on their media distribution list), no announcement. There is no credible reference in any kind of reliable media that Damon Edmunds is associated with the Melbourne Rebels. I am reverting the article. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 02:49, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

At a guess, we might assume the role is an unpaid one. The LinkedIn profile is not, in itself, sufficient, I agree. wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 03:23, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Most Caps

This is becoming a bit problematic. I can at the very least say that Delve has far fewer games than Phipps now. Since playing v Sharks he has missed games against the Cheetahs, Force and the Kings. Phipps will surely be the lone "most caps". How best to reference this? Comes.amanuensis (talk) 08:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Internationally capped players

I'll begin this section by saying the section on internationally capped players is perfectly encyclopaedic on the grounds it shows the quality of player that the Rebels are able to sign. The notability of Gareth Delve and Danny Cipriani within the rugby community drew some attention to the Rebels in their early days, and it is right that the list reflects those players. It also demonstrates what contribution the Rebels make to both Australian rugby and rugby communities overseas. For example, Eddie Aholelei has been released to for representative duties in the Pacific Nations cup. The recruitment of Shota Horie is indicative of the standard of rugby players now being developed in Japan. Furthermore, such a section is comparable to the "notable player" section in other rugby teams such as the Queensland Reds page. Only one player for the Rebels has played 100 games- that is Nic Henderson but he did not play 100 games for the Rebels. Instead of "notable players" I would suggest that "current international players" serves a purpose to highlight those players who have risen to the next level in rugby- representing their country. Until someone can explain to me how such a section is unnecessary, I move that the section be kept. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 09:51, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, I didn't remove the section, so I'm speculating, but I think the reason why it was removed is that all players that have been capped internationally has been made bold in the "Current squad" section. The "Internationally capped players" section does not provide any additional information that can't now be found in the "Current squad" section, so I can understand the reasoning behind its removal (even though I personally prefer the separate section). If more details were added to the "Internationally capped players" section that can't be ascertained merely from a bold name (such as number of caps, years active, etc.), it would justify having a separate section, in my opinion. TheMightyPeanut (talk) 10:24, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I must confess I didn't notice the bold face. If there was a key akin to "boldface type= international representation" I'd consider that a pretty reasonable compromise. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 09:45, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I updated the pages for all the Super Rugby teams to state that the players in bold are current internationals. and then removed that section. Hope that's OK! TheMightyPeanut (talk) 16:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I would draw your attention to the following discussion: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#Removing international players. Hamish59 (talk) 11:18, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

That's not entirely the same thing, I don't think. That discussion is more to do with a historical list of internationals or a list of notable players (without criteria). This is just about current internationals. TheMightyPeanut (talk) 16:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Reorganisation

I have reorganised the article into a similar format to Crusaders (rugby union) which is a Featured Article. A lot of areas of the article didn't comply with the manual of style WP:MOS - including the section headings (using "&", and inappropriate use of capitals). As well, there were many redundant sections (Honours?). I've left the internationally capped players section, mainly because a delisted well defined notable players section doesn't exist. These changes should be non-controversial. Maybe discuss here before making any more significant changes. - Shudde ^talk 10:11, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Updates needed

"The club is run by a board..." It's time for an update. wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 01:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Staff movements

Perhaps Nathan Grey will join the Waratahs coaching team in 2014 to oversee the "defensive performance and contact skills of the squad"? Do you know a reliable source? wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 03:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Bryce Cavanagh was appointment Head of Athletic Performance for the next two seasons. wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 05:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Other changes were reported 10 September 2013. wcrosbie (talk), Melbourne, Australia 23:09, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

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