Talk:holy man

RFD discussion: December 2018

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holy man

SOP. Per utramque cavernam 01:39, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

The given def "a saintly, pious person" does seem SoP. The phrase does seem to convey something to me that might go a tiny bit beyond its parts (a saint-like figure in the Orient, or outside of Western/mainstream Christianity? — I'd be more inclined to call Gandhi a "holy man" than Jesus or St. Nicholas). But the current entry seems transparent. Equinox ◑ 01:59, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

This is a bit more complicated than it looks. The original definition was:

1. A person who seeks GOD, using ALL of the predefined religious and philosophical methodologies

User:Surjection changed it to its current SOP definition.

That said, I don't see how the original definition (if it exists) is different from being a man who is holy. The details of the philosophy and/or religious practices of the referent are irrelevant to the meaning of the term. It could also refer to someone whose religion isn't known, an adherent of any specific faith, or someone who embraces spirituality without having a specific religion in mind. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:11, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

I didn't RFD it because it would pass CFI by WT:LEMMING; Collins has an entry for it. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 02:13, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

An adherent of any faith... well, I can think of situations where I'd say "he's religious" (perhaps telling family about a devout co-worker who is coming to dinner) but wouldn't say "he's a holy man" (which sounds like some kind of high social status, like being the elder of the tribe). Citeable? YMBJ Equinox ◑ 02:36, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

I think holy man is SoP if just used to refer to a male person who is holy or pious. However, I believe one does see the term used to mean people who withdraw from the mundane world to focus entirely on religious practices (hermits or eremites?), particularly those who are ascetics. If that can be verified through quotations, I think that might be an idiomatic usage. I'm not familiar with any use of the term to refer to people who rank highly in some religious hierarchy. — SGconlaw (talk) 09:23, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

The sense I attach to holy man is that of someone who has renounced the ways of the world and committed their life fully to a holy purpose. That goes far beyond being pious, or embracing spirituality. Note that you cannot replace holy in the collocation holy man by sacred, so in case holy man is SOP, the sense of holy is not quite sense #1 (dedicated to a religious purpose or a god), or else sacred is not truly a synonym for this sense. But note that you can say “sacred city of Jerusalem” instead of the given use example “holy city of Jerusalem”. My inclination is that the term is indeed SOP, but that we need an additional sense to cover for this use (which will then also serve for the term holy woman). The original definition, and in particular its clarification in the latest definition, are reminiscent of the Buddha’s threefold training.  --Lambiam 09:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Addition: For an exposition of the difference between sacred and holy, see here. So perhaps sense #1 applies, but we need a usage note to draw attention to this difference.  --Lambiam 09:46, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

By the way, Drrnbrllrd has added sense 2 which is a variation on what he or she originally indicated as the meaning of the term. I can't imagine it is attestable, and think it should be speedily deleted. — SGconlaw (talk) 09:58, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Lambiam's perspective, although I'm not sure why the word "sacred" matters, as it generally isn't used for people anyway, so the set use of "holy" doesn't make it any more idiomatic. When I see the term "holy man" I think of a wandering ascetic, or more broadly, anyone who has renounced material possessions to devote themselves to their respective religion. They're also usually somewhat of a sage. I wouldn't call someone who wasn't holy within their respective religion a "holy man" nor would I call just any holy man within a certain religious tradition a "holy man" in this sense. In my experience, it also doesn't usually refer to such people in Christianity, which is unusual if it's entirely SOP. I think the following arguments are also relevant:

1. The term, in my experience, is pronounced with emphasis on the first syllable of "holy."
2. The expected analogous term, "holy woman" (with the same emphasis on the first syllable) sounds odd to me, likely because wandering ascetics are much less likely to be or have been women. "Holy woman" with a normal stress pattern sounds natural, of course.
3. Adjective order changes when used with this term. In this case one says things like "a Muslim holy man" or "Hindu holy man" rather than the expected "holy Muslim man" or "holy Hindu man." I did find many examples of "holy Hindu man" or "holy Muslim man" being used in what seems to be the more narrow sense I describe, so I could be wrong on this. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 16:13, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
4. As evidence for the term referring to an (often) wandering ascetic devoted to religion, I present the following quotes (with many more example on Google Books):

   2006, Bruno Becchio, Johannes P. Schadé, Encyclopedia of World Religions, Foreign Media Group (→ISBN)

   Marabout A Muslim holy man or saint, a term used particularly in northern Africa. It is derived from the Arabic murabit, one who lives in a ribat or (generally fortified ) monastery and dedicates his lite to asceticism and the spread of Islam by ...

   2015, Timothy S. Dobe, Hindu Christian Faqir: Modern Monks, Global Christianity, and Indian Sainthood, Oxford University Press (→ISBN), page 32:

   into obscured western histories.100 To take just one example: the preeminence of wandering in many Sufi and Hindu holy man traditions, amply reflected in Rama Tirtha and Sundar Singh's lives, may in fact parallel this long-neglected ascetic ...

   2014, Kimberly B. Stratton, Dayna S. Kalleres, Daughters of Hecate: Women and Magic in the Ancient World, Oxford University Press (→ISBN)

   In his article “Ritual Expertise in Roman Egypt and the Problem of the Category ' Magician,'” Frankfurter convincingly made the case for the “continuity of the role of the ritual specialist” from Egyptian priest to Christian holy man, priest, ...

   1993, Neotestamentica

   The Christian holy man could be found living in the desert, on mountains, in caves or on pillars. He showed neither physical beauty nor athletic prowess nor cultivated intellect and would refuse following a public career (Kirschner 1984: 110).

   2001, Peter Hopkirk, Trespassers on the Roof of the World: The Race for Lhasa (→ISBN), page 20:

   ... three-month stage of their journey to the Tibetan capital. What they did not know, and never did discover, was that this was no Buddhist holy man. Had they suspected this, and troubled to count the beads of his rosary, they would have found ...

   2008, Gary Cross, Men to Boys: The Making of Modern Immaturity, Columbia University Press (→ISBN), page 119:

   Perhaps 25,000 wandered by to hear music and partake of the free LSD and to soak up the good vibes preached by Timothy Leary, who dressed like a Buddhist holy man. But he talked like a new Moses with a fresh set of commandments, ...

   2003, The Pacific World: Journal of the Institute of Buddhist Studies

   The truth is that the Buddhist holy man played an indispensable role as peacemaker in this era of war. The bare fact of ritual is that Ho-lin Po-po felt betrayed while the citizens of Ch'ang-an felt justified to protect one of their own kind.

   1999, Turning Wheel: Journal of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship

   He first appears in the records as a man in his 20s who had already been a hijiri ( unofficial, semilegal Buddhist holy man devoted to evangelism and good works among the common people) for some time. At some point he undertook self- ...

In case it wasn't clear, I'm voting keep. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 16:13, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

I find the "dressed like a Buddhist holy man" quote particularly illustrative, as dress presumably has nothing to do with holiness in the normal sense of the word. The one about Christian holy men living in the desert is also important, as living in a desert is by no means a prerequisite for being holy in Christianity (and never has been). Andrew Sheedy (talk) 16:28, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

I thought the quote about the holy man standing on the pillar was pretty good … — SGconlaw (talk) 16:41, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

The one I removed you mean? I figured the 1993 Neotestamentica quote had that covered, and I didn't want my post to be anymore wall-of-text-y than it was. :P Andrew Sheedy (talk) 22:23, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

The definition in the entry now seems unidiomatic / un-entry-worthy. However, I think there is an idiomatic definition along the lines of what Andrew mentions, someone who (mostly*) withdraws from the mundane world to live an often ascetic, spiritual life (*but may teach and interact with followers, disciples, etc, like the "holy man" the Beatles famously spent time in India with). - -sche (discuss) 22:50, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep, I think. Ƿidsiþ 12:57, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
• Keep, but the def needs reworking. And needs pron. /ˈhəʊlɪ mæn/ as accent differentiates it from the SOP /həʊlɪ ˈmæn/. - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 04:58, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Have made such changes - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 05:03, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep per WT:LEMMING. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:12, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Kept: consensus to keep, several native speakers say it has an idiomatic meaning. Per utramque cavernam 12:27, 20 December 2018 (UTC)