User talk:Nlu/archive55

DYK for Qi Ying

On 15 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Qi Ying, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Thank you for your contributions! - Cheers, Mailer Diablo 02:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Nlu (talk) 03:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Tang Taizong administration : some confirmations/anwsers need ...

Hello Nlu,

I'm re-writing my French Tang Taizong article, to the feature article level, accordingly, I'm reading again and more deeply the Cambridge History of China (CHOC), Sui and Tang volume, Chap. Kao-tsung and Chap. T'ai-tsung .
Sorry if my questions seems basic -I some time just ask for confirmations- but I have some difficulties to draw clearly the shape of Taizong's central administration because of some unclear points in the CHOC, especially the following terms, (since either my English is not perfect or that those terms are use without more precisions) I don't clearly understand :

1. 'chief minister (China)' 宰相 (ex. Xiao Yu, before 627, and in 630 = ‘chief minister’) - the CHOC use this term without saying which minister/departement he is the 'chief', what that ? leading which departement/ministers ?

2. 'Chancellery' (門下省 Menxià shĕng) and 'Chancellors', you seems to place the Chancelors (writing Imperial edict) as being the highest office, higher that Vice-presidents of the Department of State Affairs (leading administration and executive power), is there a reason ?

3. 'Vice-President of the Departement of State Affairs' (ex: Zhangsun Wuji, after 645): so, who is the president ? Taizong, right ?

4. 'Censorate' (御史臺 yushitai) - I know what it is, but it seems (?) "out" of the Three Departments and Six Ministries (fr) set of offices, have you some information on its place ?

5. School of Calligraphie (Shu Xué, create in 628), CHOC p.214, but CHOC's Glossary, p.831 wrote Shu Xue = "數学", then meaning School of Mathematics (!). Can you check on : JTS vol.3 and XTS vol.48 what is the State School create in Chang'an in 628 ?

Waiting for some answer,

Regards, Yug (talk) 15:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi... Thanks for writing. Remember that while I do consider myself sort of an expert on the subject (whereas there are many areas that I do not consider myself an expert at all!), I am not a professor and hold no graduate degree in history. (One of my undergraduate majors was history.)

• I do not remember much about the Cambridge History of China. However, I will say this; to the extent it appears to imply that Tang had a single chief minister, that is definitely wrong, and that is based on both how Tang Dynasty historians viewed their own governmental structure and also how subsequent Song Dynasty historians viewed it. (See further below.)
• Translating the Menxia Sheng as "chancellory" implies incorrectly that only the head of the Menxia Sheng (the Shizhong) is a chancellor. That is not true. I don't know how well you read Chinese, but a fairly good (and not that difficult to understand even if you're not accustomed to reading classical Chinese) discussion of how the system works is in New Book of Tang, vol. 46. If you are better at modern Chinese, Bo Yang's Zhongguoren Shigang (中國人史綱) provides a good discussion in its discussion on Tang Dynasty governmental structure. Bo translates Menxia Sheng into modern Chinese as Jiandu Yuan (the same title for the Republic of China Control Yuan, which might be imprecise, but that is in turn why I've further rendered "examination bureau" which might be imprecise as well. In any case, my translation of "chancellor" is meant to be a direct translation of Zaixiang (宰相).
• I assume, among the titles that they used for Zhangsun that they translated as "Vice-President of the Department of State Affairs" was Shangshu Pushe (尚書僕射). As Bo pointed out, that is a misleading translation because the original head position of Shangshu Sheng (尚書省, which I translate as "executive bureau" and which Bo translated as Guowu Yuan (國務院), the same translation as the State Council of the People's Republic of China), the Shangshu Ling (尚書令), was basically abolished after the start of Emperor Gaozu's reign since Emperor Taizong was the only person to have ever held it, thus rendering the Shangshu Pushe, of whom there were two, to be the head of the Shangshu Sheng. In this case, there is no Shangshu Ling; the office is vacant.
• The Yushitai was independent (although persons holding Yushi offices often had other governmental titles as well, thus making them not completely independent). For more details on its structure, see the New Book of Tang, vol. 48 if you can read classical Chinese. To tell the truth, I don't understand it well myself. It does not fall under the Shangshu Sheng, Menxia Sheng, or Zhongshu Sheng.
• I am not familiar with the Shuxue. But this is a term that means mathematics in modern Chinese. Taken in isolation in classical Chinese, I'd interpret more as in the context of "multiple arts."

I'm sorry that I do not have more information on these things that you ask. I hope that these are helpful. --Nlu (talk) 18:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

---

Woow ! ok, noticed, and copy-pasted on my personnel talk page. Thanks a lot. That give me some good advices on unclear issues. Thanks ! ;) Yug (talk) 18:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Xiongnu

You're cordially invited to join the discussion at the Talk:Xiongnu, since your name was mentioned in. Thanks. E104421 (talk) 21:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I may do so, although my knowledge about the Xiongnu is tangential in the sense that I did not extensively study about them. --Nlu (talk) 01:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Li Mi (chancellor)

On 19 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Li Mi (chancellor), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Nlu (talk) 01:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

new article

Hi, if you're going to create a very incomplete new article with no references, you might want to work on it in your userspace before putting it up on the encyclopedia. Articles with no references and empty sections aren't ideal. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point, but I disagree with it. If it's in my user space, no one else will touch it. As I see it, even before it is complete, other people can, and to the extent that they have information on the subject, should help edit it. --Nlu (talk) 05:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you if it's a stub. But if it's wholly unreferenced and not ready to be in the encyclopedia at all, then it should be userfied. No? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It would only be "wholly unreferenced" for a very brief period — and, in any case, I still think userfication is only appropriate when notability is problematic without further expansion; I think a chancellor is notable on his own. --Nlu (talk) 06:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

But there's no way for anyone else to easily check because the article includes no references. So you force other editors to do google searches and to hunt down the information you haven't bothered to include. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I probably came on a little strong. You're obviously an experienced editor and a good contributor. My bad. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I appreciate your comment. --Nlu (talk) 01:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Liu Hun

On 20 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Liu Hun, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 06:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Nlu (talk) 06:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

RE : DYK Discussion on Chinese Classical Sources

Though I am able to read the sources you have provided and understand them in context with the Historic Chinese culture as classical sources, other editors have questioned its reliability, or the lack of context to it. You might want to have a look at this discussion and perhaps offer your thoughts. - Best regards, Mailer Diablo 14:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I've commented. --Nlu (talk) 04:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

certain users think they are above the rules

User:Goldenpanda

check out his user page. he needs a warning.

User:General Tiger

has not edited recently, but has put up soapboxing on his user page in the past something about "we will chase the han pigs south to the great wall" and needs a warning.... the soapboxing is gone anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ropestar (talk • contribs)

Thanks for letting me know. I don't think Goldenpanda (talk · contribs) needs a warning -- yes, it was inappropriate, but it was in response to vandalism, and as long as the "reverse-vandalism" is removed (which I have done), I don't think a warning is necessary. As far as General Tiger (talk · contribs) is concerned, I think he's getting enough warnings and further warnings won't necessarily be useful. I am considering a WP:RfC, however. --Nlu (talk) 03:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, given user hasn't edited since October 2007, I think a warning is completely unnecessary. --Nlu (talk) 03:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Goguryeo–Sui Wars seems to have a ridiculous amount of soldiers for the chinese side. and the source is korean, so it needs a NPOV tag on the source or a note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ropestar (talk • contribs) 03:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

you might want this box for your chancellor articles.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ropestar (talk • contribs)

The box is inappropriate for Tang Dynasty chancellors, since there are always more than one at a time. Thanks for the suggestion, though. --Nlu (talk) 03:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Etymology of Chinese Surnames

do you know where i can get backround info on this?大始王皇 (talk) 06:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The last time I was in Taiwan I saw a number of decent books on the subject. I can't think of a title right now to recommend, but if you look into it it shouldn't be difficult, unless there are no Chinese bookstores around where you live. Can you tell me what country you are in? --Nlu (talk) 06:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

United states大始王皇 (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that in areas of Chinese concentration (e.g., Southern California, Bay Area, &c.) bookstores should have them. Meanwhile, as far as script writers -- sorry, I don't really know any. --Nlu (talk) 00:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

do you know a good bot/script writer whos familiar with chinese characters? we need one on wuu wikipedia.大始王皇 (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

you know the surnames im looking for are not fairly rare, ill just ask right now. are the articles on the surnames Tang, Wong, and Chang reliable? they seem to have a source but i cannto read characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 大始王皇 (talk • contribs) 00:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Can you elaborate which surnames are involved (since all of those are homonyms), and whether you're talking about the English or Chinese Wikipedia? Do you mean 唐, 王, and 張? --Nlu (talk) 02:21, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

yes those are the ones and im talking about english wikipedia.大始王皇 (talk) 03:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The articles look OK to me. I'm not an expert in the area, but the articles look plausible. --Nlu (talk) 03:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Dou Can

On 25 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Dou Can, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 13:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Nlu (talk) 15:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Jin Dynasty (1115–1234)

keep a watch over it please. wikisource is not a WP:RS but the koreans seem to think they can get away with slipping it in as a source.Julius Ceaser from Primus (talk) 20:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

what i did was slip in citation needed tags. Julius Ceaser from Primus (talk) 20:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

That's probably a good idea. Unfortunately, it's not my area of expertise, and I am kind of busy right now, with several trials set the next few weeks. (One that was set this Thursday has been continued, however.) --Nlu (talk) 04:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Zhao Jing (Tang Dynasty)

On 3 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Zhao Jing (Tang Dynasty), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 14:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Nlu (talk) 17:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Sino-turkic families

can you name the surnames aristocratic elite landowning families who mixed with the turks during northern Wei and after? i know the li and yan families were among them.大始王皇 (talk) 20:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Virtually every single one did. The four most prominent ones other than the Lis were Cui (崔), Lu (盧), Zheng (鄭), and Wang (王), but these wouldn't be the only ones. (These four and Li were the most prominent Han surnames during mid to late Northern Wei and Northern Qi.) --Nlu (talk) 22:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Abelincolnwasaturtle username seems to violate policy by dissing abe lincoln.大始王皇 (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it's still acceptable. I'd feel different if Lincoln were still alive or a recently-deceased person. --Nlu (talk) 03:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Abe Lincoln (musician) is recently deceased- only 8 years.大始王皇 (talk) 21:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's what that user had in mind. In fact, I doubt that Abe Lincoln (musician) is notable enough, although I am not yet going to nominate it for deletion. I'll think about it. --Nlu (talk) 01:35, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

USer:Keubie

USer:Kuebie is up to removing chinese names and replacing them with korean ones at the Han Wudi article. This is entirely against policy, you don't remove material because its in a language you have a problem with. Not only is this enlgish wikipedia, but its a article talking about a chinese person and a one of the names changed, Wei Man, was the name of a person who lived in a chinese state. this outrageous. its like changing kublai khan's name to a chinese one on an article about genghis khan. Julius Ceasarus From Primus (talk) 05:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. In my opinion, it's marginal -- he wasn't changing things that were non-Korean, but I did warn him. --Nlu (talk) 08:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

email

check your emailUtropastas alra (talk) 22:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 03:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Liu Ji (general)

On 17 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Liu Ji (general), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 11:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Nlu (talk) 13:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Tian Ji'an

On 22 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Tian Ji'an, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 06:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Nlu (talk) 17:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Xianbei article

Hi, could you come to look at the Xianbei article, because User:Gantuya eng and User:Enerelt are making changes to the article (such as unexplained removal of category like "Category:Ancient peoples of China" and removal of the part about "They first became a significant part of Chinese culture during the Han Dynasty" only by giving a reason of "POV removed") without any real elaboration and seems like they are motivated by a certain curiously slanted persepectives of history. I also removed some of their edits as this is an article about ethnic group, I see no reason why a state succession box they inserted should be doing on this article. These two users did not gave much reason as to why they reverted my edit. I saw your discussion on the talk page with Gantuya eng, and seems like you had similar problems before with the user, so I thought you should come look at the Xianbei article now.--TheLeopard (talk) 20:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 05:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

100 DYK Medal Congratulations

		The 100 DYK Medal
		I hereby bestow upon you this 100 DYK Medal and offer my heartiest congratulations on passing the century mark and earning this award. Your accomplishment is all the more impressive as it was done exclusively by writing and nominating more than 100 articles that you wrote yourself, without any nominations of articles written by others. Thanks for adding vital articles to Wikipedia on subjects related to China, especially Chinese historical figures, and filling in that gap with excellent articles. Congratulations on this achievement! Alansohn (talk) 00:14, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Wowzers. Nice job! 03:39, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! --Nlu (talk) 03:45, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Wang Shizhen (Tang Dynasty)

On 27 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Wang Shizhen (Tang Dynasty), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cbl62 08:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Nlu (talk) 08:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)