Talk:Senedd

Ty Hywel/Tŷ Hywel

Shouldn't Ty Hywel be spelt as "Tŷ Hywel" with it's correct Welsh spelling? Also for the main Tŷ Hywel page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.174.121 (talk) 17:59, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Kudos to above RFC result

Thank goodness Welsh Parliament got a place in the article's intro. Otherwise, a non-Welsh language fellow such as I, would've immediately figured Senedd to have meant Senate of Wales or Welsh Senate. GoodDay (talk) 22:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Plaid Cymru

Maybe change Plaid Cymru to being in co operation rather than opposition GothicGolem29 (talk) 00:33, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

If you're referring to the infobox it used to be like that for a bit until it was removed in this June 2023 edit by @Dunadan9. It was originally inserted in March 2022 by an IP. There is no consensus for or against such description, however it lasted more than a year while the removal is recent. DankJae 00:47, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Boldly re-added it back. DankJae 20:15, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Senedd and Welsh Parliament – taking stock

I'm aware that the article title has been discussed several times (the previous discussions can be found in the first talk page archive). One thing which struck me when reading them is that almost everyone involved seemed to agree that 'Senedd' was the WP:COMMONNAME, but very little evidence was provided to back this up. It seemed sensible to take a closer look, particularly now some time has passed:

English-language Welsh media

• Wales Online – Senedd
• North Wales Live (Daily Post) – Senedd

UK Media

• BBC News – Senedd and Welsh Parliament
• Sky – Senedd
• ITV – Senedd
• The Guardian – Senedd, tends to use 'Welsh parliament' with uncapitalised 'p'
• The Times – paywalled, but seems to use both?
• The Telegraph – Senedd and Welsh Parliament
• The i – Senedd and Welsh Parliament
• The Mirror – Senedd and Welsh Parliament

International English-language

• RTÉ – Senedd and WelshParliament
• Irish Times – Senedd and Welsh Parliament
• Al Jazeera – Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament
• The New Yorker – Welsh Parliament
• Washington Post – Senedd and Welsh Parliament
• Times of India – 'Welsh parliament, the Senedd'
• National Post (Canada) – Welsh Parliament and Senedd

How the body refers to itself

• Website – Senedd Cymru | Welsh Parliament
• Twitter – Welsh Parliament (@SeneddCymru)

I won't pretend the above is comprehensive, but there's a broad pattern of Welsh media using 'Senedd' exclusively, other British media using either 'Senedd' or both, and the instutution and international media using both. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Not that this is a move discussion, but if I was thinking totally pragmatically I might lean toward 'Welsh Parliament'. The fact Welsh and UK sources seem comfortable using 'Senedd', either alone or alongside 'Welsh Parliament', suggests that British Wikipedia readers will understand the title; however, as international publications tend to use 'Welsh Parliament' or both names the English name might be more understandable for all readers. It depends how you look at it really, both names have their merits. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Hmn, the issue is quite complex. While I am looking at some names, this one is a bit tricky and not considered it. The most common name is preferred than the most understood/basic one (to all readers). We have short descriptions, redirects and leads to help describe it. All of those sources, bar one, use Senedd so unless there is a clear majority of sources using only Welsh Parliament, the current situation seems fine IMO. But ofc, if new evidence shows otherwise, would still consider it.

Although seen some cite WP:ENGLISHTITLE as a reason we shouldn't use Welsh names, so that may be an argument to use.

Haven't checked all those sources, so taking at your word, but they do mostly use Senedd, so clearly more common. Although there may be more sources to be found that could tilt it to Welsh Parliament. Plus the parliament itself uses three names, which is a mess of their making, using Welsh Parliament for its logo, Senedd Cymru in law, and Senedd for everything else, is quite inconsistent on their part. So choosing the most common seems simplest for this complex name.

When doing a quick Google to analyse generic use, but yes, Google should not be used as an argument alone, shows clear preference for Senedd, in Google Trends and Google News articles 197,000 vs 43,000. But "Senedd" can also refer to the building, but on the other hand not sure if Google also includes "Welsh parliament" with a lower-case "p", which can be classed as a descriptor like "Israeli parliament" for the Knesset or "Irish parliament" for the Oireachtas / Dáil Éireann.

So there could be a case, but Senedd seems more popular for now and tbh more neutral, but I'll see if this discussion leads anywhere. DankJae 01:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I guarantee that had 'Senedd' been around ten or twenty years ago, the most common reference would be to "Welsh Parliament' The fact that 'Senedd' is used at all shows how the word has become much more common and recognisable. I suggest to you - with respect - that what you've found is examples of the newspaper trope of "the second mention". This is when a newspaper uses "Rishi Sunak" in paragraph one, "Prime Minister" in paragraph two, "the Conservative leader" in paragraph 3 and so on. I once saw "the sun" followed by."Earth's huge sky orb". Maybe we're just dealing with the trope of avoiding the same word twice. doktorb _words^deeds 04:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

If a modern source use Senedd, clearly in reference to the modern body then surely that should count, regardless if they use another name later or as a descriptor. Sunak and Prime Minister are two different subjects. Senedd and Welsh Parliament on Wikipedia are the same for now. Unless, if this becomes Welsh Parliament, that Senedd become a page about the name itself. Plus we should also consider "Senedd Cymru" the legally preferred term in laws in English, which was actually the proposed term a few years ago, unless Welsh names aren't allowed on Wikipedia at all. DankJae 07:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's entirely 'the second mention'. Some sources do seem to switch between names for variety, but several of the articles above only name the body once but still use both for clarity, e.g. '...May’s election for the Senedd Cymru, the Welsh Parliament' from Al Jazeera.

I've not looked too widely at non-news sources, but again it varies. Britannica hasn't been updated and still uses 'National Assembly', gov.uk primarily uses 'Welsh Parliament' but also 'Senedd Cymru: Welsh Parliament', and the Welsh Government mostly stick to Senedd but does use 'Parliament' for variety. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

English pronunciation and respell

Hi, an earlier edit attempted to add a {{respell}}, however for a Welsh pronunciation which isn't to be used by the template, as well as the respell looking a bit off IMO "SEN-edh".

However, Collins uses the same IPA for English, therefore leading to theoretically

/ˈsɛnɛð/ SEN-eth

, if I re-spelled it correctly. But considering how copy-and-pasted the pronunciation seems, is this correct? As I think having a re-spell would be great for readers, although understand opposition arguing the audio file is enough, and how we should now refrain from un-needed English pronunciations. DankJae 08:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Would adding as in "whether" after SEN-eth be allowed? Ham II (talk) 15:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@Ham II, nothing at MOS:PRON mentions that, and I rarely see it, so not sure. Although it could be pushed into a footnote if needed?

The tooltip for the IPA-c gives 'e' in 'dress' and 'th' in 'this' by default. DankJae 16:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@Ham II, what about this?

/ˈsɛnɛð/ SEN-eth

Hopefully this doesn't cause some hidden formatting error. Appears to work fine? DankJae 13:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@DankJae: Too subtle, I think; a reader who doesn't spot the tooltip for "ð" isn't going to see the one for "eth" either. I've looked into this a bit more now, and {{respell|SEN|edh}} does appear to be the standard way to do it, because that displays as SEN-edh, which links to Help:Pronunciation respelling key where "dh" is explained. Ham II (talk) 05:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

ah right, I guess I got confused with Help:IPA/English and used "th" as an approximation, when it is supposed to be respelled "edh". But fine as long as its there now. DankJae 18:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)